IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA - - - AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES : CIVIL ACTION NO. 96-963-M UNION, et al : Plaintiffs : : v. : Philadelphia, Pennsylvania : March 21, 1996 JANET RENO, in her official : capacity as ATTORNEY GENERAL : OF THE UNITED STATES, : Defendant : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . HEARING BEFORE: THE HONORABLE DOLORES K. SLOVITER, CHIEF JUDGE, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE THIRD CIRCUIT THE HONORABLE RONALD L. BUCKWALTER THE HONORABLE STEWART DALZELL UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGES - - - APPEARANCES: For the Plaintiffs: CHRISTOPHER A. HANSEN, ESQUIRE MARJORIE HEINS, ESQUIRE ANN BEESON, ESQUIRE American Civil Liberties Union 132 West 43rd Street New York, NY 10036 -and- STEFAN PRESSER, ESQUIRE American Civil Liberties Union 123 S. 9th Street, Suite 701 Philadelphia, PA 19107 -and- For the ALA BRUCE J. ENNIS, JR., ESQUIRE Plaintiffs: ANN M. KAPPLER, ESQUIRE JOHN B. MORRIS, JR., ESQUIRE Jenner and Block 601 13th Street, N.W. Washington, DC 20005 - - - 2 APPEARANCES: (Continued) For the Defendant: ANTHONY J. COPPOLINO, ESQUIRE PATRICIA RUSSOTTO, ESQUIRE JASON R. BARON, ESQUIRE THEODORE C. HIRT Department of Justice 901 E. Street, N.W. Washington, DC 20530 -and- MARK KMETZ, ESQUIRE U.S. Attorney's Office 615 Chestnut Street, Suite 1250 Philadelphia, PA 19106 - - - Also Present: MICHAEL KUNZ Clerk of the Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania - - - Deputy Clerks: Thomas Clewley Matthew J. Higgins Audio Operator: Andrea L. Mack Transcribed by: Geraldine C. Laws Grace Williams Tracey Williams Laws Transcription Service (Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recording; transcript provided by computer-aided transcription service.) 3 1 (Whereupon the following occurred in open court at 2 9:32 o'clock a.m.:) 3 CLERK OF COURT KUNZ: Oyez, oyez, oyez, all manner 4 of persons having any matter to present before the Honorable 5 Dolores K. Sloviter, Chief Judge of the United States Court 6 of Appeals for the Third Circuit and the Honorable Ronald L. 7 Buckwalter and the Honorable Stewart Dalzell, Judges of the 8 United States District Court for the Eastern District of 9 Pennsylvania may at present appear and they shall be heard. 10 God save the United States and this Honorable Court. Court 11 is now in session, please be seated. 12 COUNSEL: Good morning, your Honor. 13 JUDGE SLOVITER: Good morning. This is the hearing 14 before the statutory Three-Judge Court on the request for a 15 preliminary injunction in the consolidated action of American 16 Civil Liberties Union and its co-plaintiffs versus Reno, No. 17 96-963, and American Library Association and its co- 18 plaintiffs versus Department of Justice, No. 96-1458. 19 Judge Buckwalter and I want to thank Judge Dalzell 20 for his case management of all preliminary matters and all 21 three Judges want to thank the parties for their concerted 22 efforts to expedite the proceedings by entering into 23 stipulations and we want to thank the plaintiffs for 24 presenting their testimony in chief by affidavits which are 25 available for public and press view. 4 1 We -- now, there have been various requests for 2 photographing the proceedings and I thought it might be, we 3 thought it might be appropriate to make a statement at the 4 inception. 5 In September 1994 the Judicial Conference of the 6 United States voted not to permit the taking of photographs 7 and radio and television coverage of proceedings in the 8 United States District Courts, whether those proceedings are 9 civil or criminal. 10 When the Judicial Conference voted last week to 11 permit each Court of Appeals to decide whether and under what 12 circumstances to permit the taking of photographs and radio 13 and television arguments of appellate arguments it reiterated 14 its prior policy with respect to the District Courts. 15 This proceeding is a three-judge District Court 16 proceeding. I am a member of the Judicial Conference of the 17 United States and Chief Judge Cahn of the Eastern District of 18 Pennsylvania is a member of the Judicial Conference. 19 Whatever the views of individual members of the 20 Eastern District on the issue of cameras in the Federal 21 courtroom or the collective views on that issue of that 22 District Court which was one of the pilot courts during the 23 project and whatever the personal views of the Judges on this 24 panel on that issue, we will abide by the vote of the 25 Judicial Conference of the United States, whether binding or 5 1 hortatory. 2 We are privileged to be part of the great 3 institution that is the Federal Judiciary of the United 4 States. 5 Okay, we will proceed with cross-examination of the 6 plaintiff's witness by the Government and we ask the 7 Government at the inception is there any -- we understand 8 that the first witness is -- and we'll ask the Government, 9 whom are you calling? The Government. 10 (Laughter.) 11 JUDGE SLOVITER: The Court of Appeals, go ahead. 12 MR. COPPOLINO: I'm sorry, your Honor, your 13 question? 14 JUDGE SLOVITER: Your first witness? 15 MR. COPPOLINO: Would be Scott Bradner, I believe, 16 your Honor. 17 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay. And do you accept Mr. 18 Bradner as an expert? 19 MR. COPPOLINO: Yes, we do, your Honor. 20 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay, thank you. Then proceed. 21 JUDGE DALZELL: Oh, yes, Mr. Coppolino, just one 22 housekeeping, important housekeeping matter. We were most 23 grateful to the parties for the extensive stipulations that 24 were submitted that will probably save us a week of testimony 25 but there was -- and I don't criticize you for this -- there 6 1 was a qualification at the beginning of the stipulating 2 having to do with the fact that discovery of the plaintiff's 3 case was not concluded and therefore it says that no party 4 waives its right to submit information inconsistent with its 5 terms should it learn thereof through discovery, disclosure 6 or other investigation. 7 Now, I take it that by April 1st, that is to say 8 when the plaintiffs complete their case, that the Government 9 will be in a position to tell us yea or nay whether it indeed 10 accepts every paragraph of those stipulations. 11 MR. COPPOLINO: Your Honor, I believe I can 12 represent that the purpose of the stipulation on the part of 13 both parties was to indicate that it was applicable to the 14 entire PI hearing. And I believe that the specific purpose 15 being addressed here is that as the case proceeds beyond the 16 PI stage of the merits and discovery is taken at that time 17 which indicates that some of the statements in here are 18 incorrect or inaccurate upon further testing that at that 19 point these particular stipulations would not apply. 20 That's my understanding. 21 JUDGE DALZELL: All right. So therefore you can 22 represent to us now that for purposes of this preliminary 23 injunction hearing that we may take the stipulation without 24 qualification. 25 MR. COPPOLINO: Yes. 7 1 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay, fine, that's very helpful. 2 Thank you. 3 Okay, do you want to -- it's Mr. Bradner, is it? 4 MR. MORRIS: Yes, your Honor, my name is John 5 Morris, co-counsel for the ALA plaintiffs and plaintiffs call 6 as their first witness Scott O. Bradner. 7 MR. KMETZ: Your Honor, Mr. Jason Baron will be 8 handling the cross-examination. 9 JUDGE SLOVITER: And it's our understanding that 10 there will be only one lawyer per witness. 11 MR. KMETZ: That would be our understanding as well. 12 MR. MORRIS: That's certainly our understanding. If 13 the Court would indulge at the conclusion of any redirect we 14 might have, I will confer just momentarily among ourselves to 15 make sure that we're all on the same page. 16 JUDGE SLOVITER: We don't mind your conferring as 17 long as you don't mind our conferring -- 18 (Laughter.) 19 JUDGE SLOVITER: -- because a three-judge court is 20 something new for all of us, three-judge District Court. 21 THE COURT CLERK: Sir, will you state and spell your 22 full name for the record? 23 THE WITNESS: Scott Bradner, S-c-o-t-t 24 B-r-a-d-n-e-r. 25 THE COURT CLERK: Will you place your left hand on 8 1 the Bible and raise your right hand? 2 SCOTT BRADNER, Plaintiffs' Witness, Affirmed. 3 MR. MORRIS: And at this point the plaintiffs would 4 move into admission the evidence of the previously filed 5 declaration of Mr. Bradner as sworn to on the 19th of this 6 month as his trial testimony. 7 And Mr. Bradner is available for examination by the 8 Government and certainly any questions the Court may have, 9 I'm sure he'd be happy to respond to. 10 JUDGE SLOVITER: Thank you. Is there any objection 11 to-- 12 MR. BARON: No objection, your Honor. 13 JUDGE SLOVITER: -- accepting that as evidence, 14 fine. Proceed. 15 MR. BARON: Good morning, your Honors. 16 JUDGE SLOVITER: Good morning. 17 JUDGE DALZELL: Good morning. 18 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: Good morning. 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. BARON: 21 Q Good morning, Mr. Bradner. You state in your decla-- 22 JUDGE SLOVITER: Excuse me. In the Court of Appeals 23 we always identify ourselves, we ask the counsel to identify 24 themselves for the record. Maybe that would be a good idea. 25 MR. BARON: My apologies, your Honor. 9 1 JUDGE SLOVITER: That's all right. 2 MR. BARON: I'm Jason R. Baron, B-a-r-o-n, counsel 3 to the U.S. Department of Justice. 4 JUDGE SLOVITER: Thank you. 5 MR. BARON: Thank you, your Honor. 6 BY MR. BARON: 7 Q Mr. Bradner, you state in your declaration that you are 8 co-area director of something called the IETF. Could you, in 9 a nutshell, tell us what the IETF is and what does it do? 10 A The Internet Engineering Task Force is a self-organizing 11 group which developed out of some U.S. Federal Government 12 networking initiatives many years ago and it is the group 13 which now is primarily responsible for developing standards 14 for use in the Internet protocol which is the basis upon 15 which the Internet runs. 16 Q The IETF has been in existence for about ten years, 17 correct? 18 A That is correct. I'd be clear that it predates my 19 involvement so I'm taking that from what others have said. 20 Q Okay. Would it be fair to say that the IETF defines 21 standards for the Internet Protocol suite? 22 A That is -- yes, it would be fair to say that. 23 Q Could you explain for the Court what is the Internet 24 Protocol, otherwise known as IP? 25 A The Internet itself consists of many networks connected 10 1 together by other networks. The Internet Protocol is that 2 part of the protocol suite, that part of the language which 3 is used on the network which allows a piece of information 4 called a packet on one network to find its way to identify a 5 separate network and find its way to that separate network. 6 So the IP is the Internet Protocol that allows movement of 7 data between networks. 8 Q Different protocols make up IP suite, correct? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q Can you name a few for the Court? 11 A Well, the underlying protocol is the Internet Protocol or 12 IP. Riding on top of that are protocols such as TCP, the 13 Transmission Control Protocol, UDP, the Unreliable Datagram 14 Protocol, ICMP, the Internet Control Message Protocol. 15 Riding on top of TCP are protocols such as Telnet on the 16 World Wide Web, HTTP Protocols. It's a layer cake of various 17 different concoctions. 18 Q Well, we'll get into some of those in a few minutes. Who 19 comprises the IETF? 20 A As I said, the IETF is a self-organized group, we have 21 meetings three times a year. The membership is those who 22 attend the meetings and those who are on the mailing lists. 23 There are some 80 or so working groups, each of the working 24 groups maintains a mailing list and anybody who joins any of 25 those mailing lists is de facto part of the IETF. 11 1 There is an organizational structure within the IETF 2 which divides the working groups up into areas and then the 3 area, each area is managed by one or more, one or two area 4 directors. 5 Q We're going to get into that as well. People doing the, 6 quote, "standards work," unquote, on the IETF, are they 7 normally paid by corporations and businesses? 8 A Or they are paid by corporations or businesses or 9 universities or their private consultants. 10 Q Okay. Could you explain to the Court what an RFC is? 11 A RFC came from the original process of asking for 12 comments, it stood for request for comments, asking for 13 comments on thoughts on how to do some proposal. It is 14 progressed past that point now and RFC stands for RFC. It no 15 longer is a vehicle for comments. There is a new vehicle for 16 the comments which are called Internet drafts and they pre-- 17 precede RFC's, but RFC's are the basic standardization 18 document series for the IETF. 19 Q RFC's exist that define a standards process for the 20 Internet, correct? 21 A There are a series of RFC's which have progressively 22 defined the standards process. 23 Q And some of the RFC's establishing a standards process 24 for the Internet are well established, correct? 25 A There is -- the original standards process was defined in 12 1 RFC-1310, that has been superseded by RFC-1602 which has been 2 in effect for a few years, I don't remember exactly what. 3 And within one of the working groups within the IETF is 4 called the Poise Working Group -- and don't ask me what that 5 stands for cause I don't know -- and that is in the process 6 of refining a third revision of the standards process. It's 7 now known as 1602 BIS because it has not gotten its own RFC 8 number yet. That should happen within a few weeks. 9 Q You're editing at least one RFC at the present time 10 having to do with Internet standards, correct? 11 A I am editing two of them; co-editing one and editing 12 another one. 13 Q Now, you mentioned an area within IETF, what is an area 14 within the IETF? 15 A An area is a grouping of working groups, normally trying 16 to make the -- it's normally tried to be done in a way which 17 is logical so that the working groups which are working on 18 security-related matters are grouped in the security area. 19 Working groups that are working on network management related 20 efforts are in the network management area. 21 Q Would it be fair to say that the area of operational 22 requirements that you are co-area director of has to do with 23 developing standards for the next generation of software for 24 the Internet? 25 A No, it would not be. The operational requirements area 13 1 is a little bit of a confusion point on the IETF in that one 2 of the things that we feel we must have is some kind of 3 feedback from the operation of a protocol to the protocol 4 developers and the operational requirements area does two 5 things: one, tries to make sure that when standards are 6 developed they can be done so, the resultant standards can 7 actually be operated in the real world rather than just in 8 the theoretical world. And then, second of all, if indeed 9 when these standards are deployed that there is any lessons 10 to be learned which should go back to the standards 11 developers that they are fed back. 12 I think what you may be referring to is the ad hoc 13 or the temporary IP Next Generation or IPNG area which is, 14 was working on and is currently working on extending for the 15 new generation of the IP protocol itself. 16 Q Well, you have also been the co-area director of the IP 17 Next Generation area, correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q It sounds a little bit like Star Trek; what does that 20 area consist of? 21 A It was purposely it sounds a little like Star Trek, 22 actually. 23 (Laughter.) 24 A It consists of the -- Allison Menkin and I were asked by 25 the -- by Phil Gross, the chair of the IETF, to put together 14 1 a temporary area to -- to group together all of the 2 activities involved, all of the proposals for a successor 3 protocol to IP to deal with scaling issues and the like and 4 to resolve the question of what should be "The Proposal" out 5 of the IETF-4 and IP Next Generation. There were a number of 6 proposals on the books when we were assigned the task of 7 forming this temporary area, we have made a recommendation on 8 what the next generation should be, that recommendation has 9 been accepted and the area right now is closing down because 10 it's very close to have finished publishing the initial set 11 of RFC's, the initial set of standards for IP Next 12 Generation. 13 Q Would it be fair to say, to summarize what you've just 14 said, that the IP Next Generation group is working on a new 15 generation of the IP Protocol itself? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q Does it have -- does the IP Next Generation group have 18 recommendations regarding a specific architecture of the 19 packet traffic on the Internet, including the format of the 20 packet? 21 A It has a recommendation on the format of the packet 22 itself that's actually the basic recommendation is the format 23 of the packet traffic itself. You used the word 24 "architecture" in your question and that's potentially 25 confusing because architecture could mean the way the 15 1 networks are put together, it could mean the concept of how 2 the packets are flowed through the network, it could mean a 3 number of different things, so I would prefer to say that 4 we've defined the packet format itself and we have looked at 5 architecture in various areas but not come to a specific 6 recommendation on architecture. 7 JUDGE DALZELL: Sir, when you -- excuse me. When 8 you use the word "architecture" and it's in all -- a number 9 of the declarations, there's no -- that's not a term of art 10 that means one thing in this area? 11 THE WITNESS: It means -- it means one thing for 12 each of the areas that it's in. And it's as a security 13 architecture which ties together a unified view of how one 14 should do security. 15 There is a routing architecture which ties together 16 a unified view of how one should do routing which is the 17 keeping track of where networks are. So there are a number 18 of architectures depending on what particular topic we're on. 19 There isn't an overall architecture because at the moment 20 it's too complex a network with too many functions going on. 21 You have to look at the individual functions and do an 22 architecture on those. 23 We have done some work in that area, there is an 24 architecture for security, an IP Next Generation Security 25 which is now the general IP Security architecture and we have 16 1 looked at architecture in other areas, but it's difficult to 2 do to unify all of the thoughts together. 3 One of our recommendations in the -- in our 4 recommendation for IP Next Generation was to appoint an 5 individual to be an architect for IP Next Generation. 6 Unfortunately, there aren't many people who could do that 7 task and fewer of them with enough time to do it. So we in 8 the -- as Allison and I have acted as architects to make sure 9 that there's a consistent view of what IPNG, IP Next 10 Generation looks like across the various activities creating 11 protocols for it, the TCP Next Generation, the ICNP Next 12 Generation, the routing, security, all of these different 13 working groups working on different aspects of it, we're 14 trying to keep their view of what IP Next Generation looks 15 like as consistent. 16 So we in that context are acting as architects, but 17 it's architects is one of those words which depends on the 18 beholder. 19 JUDGE DALZELL: Depends on? 20 THE WITNESS: On the beholder. 21 JUDGE DALZELL: Okay. But you consider yourself 22 one? 23 THE WITNESS: In a real sense, no, I do not. 24 Architects tend to be more visionary than I tend to be in 25 this environment, intend to be more on intuitive feeling of 17 1 how the incredibly complicated world of the networking fits 2 together and what the implications are of making a change 3 some place. 4 I think that I can understand architecture, but I 5 would not go so far as to say that I am an architect in the 6 context of, for example, Dave Clark of MIT, Dr. Dave Clark, 7 who is -- who was the original IP architect and the one who-- 8 and the person that unfortunately didn't have enough time to 9 be the IP Next Generation architect. 10 JUDGE DALZELL: But, for example, in the stipulation 11 and we hear a lot about the packet switching, for example. 12 Now, would that be like, to continue the metaphor, a brick 13 that is commonly used in all forms of architecture? 14 THE WITNESS: It's -- maybe it's more of a fact of 15 life of the forms of architecture, but -- 16 JUDGE DALZELL: Because that's unchanging, the 17 packet switching concept, that's not going to change? 18 THE WITNESS: One of the areas that we specifically 19 addressed in working on IP Next Generation was what are the 20 paradigms which we want to follow in IP Next Generation and 21 one of them was we wanted to preserve what is called the 22 Datagram mode which is the packet mode. 23 The alternative to that is circuit switching like a 24 telephone where you do a call setup, you do initialization 25 and all of the traffic flows down a particular path. 18 1 The original IP that designed when it was originally 2 designed was designed to deal with adverse events. The 3 colloquial story is it was designed to deal with atomic war 4 which is an adverse event. And -- 5 JUDGE DALZELL: I think we can agree on that. 6 (Laughter.) 7 THE WITNESS: And so the ability for IP to survive 8 that kind of environment, the kind of hostile environment we 9 felt was very important to maintain, Datagram mode means that 10 the individual units of the data that move over the network 11 which are packets have full identify-- source identifiers and 12 destination identifiers in each packet and are separately 13 routed, separately handled by the computers which comprise 14 the network, therefore being resilient to individual failure. 15 JUDGE DALZELL: And that is -- but that is not 16 subject to change right now, that's not in the NG, the IPNG? 17 THE WITNESS: We specifically, specifically chose to 18 require the support for Datagram mode in IPNG. 19 JUDGE DALZELL: Thank you. Sorry to interrupt. 20 BY MR. BARON: 21 Q Mr. Bradner, are all IETF documents public? 22 A It is a -- it is a matter of pride and honor in the IETF 23 that all documents are public documents available for free 24 over the net. We used the paradigm to develop the paradigm. 25 Q And that includes all RFC drafts or proposals for 19 1 standards, right? 2 A That is correct, they are called Internet Drafts and they 3 are publicly available. 4 Q And they're put up on web sites and are available to the 5 world at large, correct? 6 A That is correct. 7 Q Can we pause here and define what a URL is for the Court? 8 A URL is a term which means Uniform Resource Locator, a 9 pointer. It's the best -- the best way to identi-- to 10 consider it is it's sort of like a combination of all of the 11 things you might have in a phone directory listing, 12 somebody's name and address, and it is where something is on 13 the Net, not relative to you but in an absolute sense. 14 You don't go three buildings over to the left and 15 two stores down, it is here is the absolute location of 16 something ir-- independent of where you happen to be sitting 17 in the network. 18 Q For the IETF itself, am I correct that the URL is 19 something known as HTTP://WWW.EFF.ORG? 20 A That is incorrect. 21 Q Oh. 22 A Now, I'm sure that -- 23 Q Please correct me. 24 A -- you -- you meant that to be incorrect. 25 Q Oh, I see, yes, no, I'm sorry, I -- I did not have the 20 1 right URL. Why don't you give the right URL? 2 A HTTT -- HTTP://WWW.IETF.ORD. 3 MR. BARON: Yes, your Honors, I think I've been 4 reading the EFF site on the Web too much. 5 BY MR. BARON: 6 Q Okay. Could you explain what these domains in that URL 7 represent for the IETF URL? 8 A The -- the part which is relative to the IETF is the 9 WWW.IETF.ORD. The part which precedes that, HTTP, is the 10 protocol, the function in which one should retrieve, should 11 access this site. Different options there are, for example, 12 FTP for File Transfer Protocol or Gofer, are different kinds 13 of concepts, different kinds of application programs to use 14 to access this site. 15 In this particular case where you can access that 16 particular site with FTP with anonymous FTP or with the Web, 17 WWW, the URL you specified is one which is using the Web to 18 access this site. 19 Q What's the difference between the current IP Version Four 20 and the Next Generation Version Six of the protocol? 21 A How much detail would you like that answer in? 22 Q Oh, just -- just sort of a summary for the Court. 23 A The reason to undertake the effort, and it was some 24 significant effort to develop a new generation for IP 25 revolved around three basic issues: 21 1 The first issue was that the IP address itself which 2 is the field, I mentioned in the packets themselves there is 3 this source identifier and a destination identifier, a source 4 address and a destination address. In IP Version Four which 5 is the current version, those fields are 32 bits long, each 6 of which could in theory identify four billion individual 7 posts or computers on the Network, but because of address 8 assignment inefficiency we're beginning to run out of those 9 and we're beginning to run out at a rate which caused a great 10 deal of consternation, particularly in the press back in the 11 early 90's, '92 and '93, that investment in IP was probably 12 not a good idea because we were running out of addresses. 13 It's like going to the phone company and saying I'd like a 14 phone and they say they don't have a number. 15 So the first thing was to try and fix the problem of 16 running out of addresses. The second thing was to try and 17 fix the problem of that there was too much routing 18 information, this is the information within the computers 19 that tie the Internet together, they're called routers, 20 they're special purpose computers. And in each one of those 21 computers in the backbone, in the more central locations 22 within the network must keep track of where every network in 23 the world is, every -- the network which is the one which 24 connects this computer here has to be kept track of by those 25 computers and the routers in the backbone. 22 1 The size of the routing table, the size of that 2 information was growing faster than memory technology, 3 doubling every nine to ten months and memory technology was 4 doubling every 11 to 24 months and in the long run those two 5 lines will never intersect. And so we had to do something. 6 JUDGE DALZELL: Excuse me, it's doubling every nine 7 to twelve months? 8 THE WITNESS: In nine -- 9 JUDGE DALZELL: It's doubling every nine to -- 10 THE WITNESS: The size of the Internet, yes. 11 JUDGE DALZELL: Nine to twelve months? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's been tending towards the 13 nine month area of doubling. 14 And then the third area was want to be able to deal 15 with improving some aspects of the current Internet, security 16 aspects, real time or flow control or quality of service 17 metrics and things like that, so those were the three areas 18 which we were focusing on. 19 In the first area the IP Version Four address, as I 20 said, is 32 bits long. The IP Version Six which is what IP 21 Next Generation is, is 128 bits long. Now, that's four times 22 the number of bits, but that's actually four billion times 23 four billion times four billion times the number of hosts. 24 That turns out to be a very large number, yet somebody 25 estimated that even under the absolute worst efficiency, the 23 1 least efficient method of allocating them it still works out 2 to 1500 computers per square meter of the earth's surface, 3 including the oceans. 4 (Laughter.) 5 THE WITNESS: We think that we have -- we think that 6 we have aimed for the future in the expandability of this. 7 (Laughter.) 8 BY MR. BARON: 9 Q Sounds like a pervasive number of bits. 10 A Okay. The second, the second area was dealing with the 11 routing table space and we've made the addresses aggregatable 12 so that instead of having to articulate and list every 13 individual network, you can list a group of networks together 14 as one entry and this allows us to summarize the information 15 so that we don't have as many entries. 16 And then the third one, which was the other aspects, 17 we've identified some strong security mechanisms and we have 18 a field in the packet header which will allow future use for 19 flow control, quality of service and metrics of that type. 20 JUDGE SLOVITER: Could I ask a lay question, very 21 basic? If you go to this four times as many bits is it going 22 to increase four times everybody's address? 23 THE WITNESS: The -- that's a very good question and 24 actually that's something that a lot of people get confused. 25 There are two ways that you look at addresses on the 24 1 Internet. One is that bit pattern, currently the 32 bits, so 2 the address of the computer sitting on my desk at Harvard is 3 128.103.65.15. Now, I don't expect you to remember that, I'm 4 surprised that I do most of the time. 5 JUDGE SLOVITER: And I don't intend to write to you 6 that way cause I wouldn't know how. 7 (Laughter.) 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. It's now in the record so 9 you could look it up, but that's not the way that you should 10 know about my computer. You should know about my computer by 11 using its what is called domain name, which is a people 12 friendly name, and that name is NEWDEV, as in the New 13 Development Machine, dot Harvard dot EDU. As long as you're 14 using that what is called the domain name, the size of the 15 actual address, the number of bits in the address is not 16 reflected back to something that the user has to deal with. 17 I would not want to try to remember the 128 bit version of 18 what my -- my computer's address is, but the domain name, 19 NEWDEV.Harvard.EDU will remain the same. 20 JUDGE SLOVITER: Thank you. 21 Sorry. 22 BY MR. BARON: 23 Q Mr. Bradner, you also said on something called the IESG, 24 the Internet Engineering Steering Group, correct? 25 A That is correct. 25 1 Q You've -- this is the Standards Approval Board of the 2 IETF, correct? 3 A That is correct. 4 Q Take us through, very briefly, if you would, the 5 standards track in terms of the three stages of standards, 6 proposed, draft and full? 7 A Actually, I would like to start a little bit before that. 8 All documents which are going to be proposed for 9 consideration for standardization within the IETF must first 10 appear as one of the Internet drafts that you mentioned 11 earlier that are publicly available ideas. And so somebody 12 who wishes to, somebody or some working group or some group 13 of individuals who wish to make a standard or have a document 14 considered to be a -- for standardization creates a Internet 15 draft. Usually that is the product of a working group or is 16 that, you know, a working group is formed to look at that 17 proposal, but not always. 18 After working group consideration, the working group 19 chair would propose to the area director within the area that 20 this document be considered by the IESG for the standards 21 process, for the standards track. 22 The first step, the IESG then reviews that and does 23 an internal vote and approves or does not approve of the 24 document based on its technical quality, its clarity and all 25 of the other things that one should consider when approving a 26 1 standard. 2 The first step in the standards process is, as you 3 mentioned, the proposed standard status. A proposed standard 4 is a document which is felt to be useful, i.e. has a 5 constituency usually within a working group and within the 6 IETF itself, and that constituency believes that this is of 7 value to the community and that it has no known errors, no 8 known flaws. If something is discovered in the process of 9 evaluation by the IESG or the working group which is a flaw, 10 then it should be returned to the working group and reworked. 11 Six months after a document has been approved as a 12 proposed standard it can then be considered for being a draft 13 standard. To achieve draft standard status, a document, a 14 specification must have multiple interoperable 15 implementations, you know, it's got to be proven to work, and 16 it's got to -- all of the individual aspects of it have to be 17 proven to work, all of the individual functions have to have 18 been shown to be implemented and interoperable. 19 This is unlike some other standards bodies which 20 just say this is a good idea and it's a better idea now than 21 it used to be because we've thought about it longer. 22 JUDGE SLOVITER: Could you give us an example? 23 Bring us down to earth, give us an example of a standard like 24 a proposed standard. What are we talking about? 25 THE WITNESS: A proposed standard, for example -- 27 1 JUDGE SLOVITER: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: -- an example of one is in the IE -- 3 in the Inter-- in the IET -- IP Next Generation there is a 4 proposed standard which is the basic packet format and how 5 that packet is handled by routers as it goes through the 6 network. It defines the fields in the packet, the 128-bit 7 addresses, what routers do when they encounter this packet, 8 how they process it, all of that kind of aspect, all of those 9 aspects surrounding defining a packet of IP Version Six IP 10 Next Generation and how to move it through the network are 11 part of a proposed standard. 12 Another proposed standard would be -- well, a full 13 standard is Telnet which is a, Telnet is the remote access 14 protocol where you -- I can sit at this machine here and log 15 into as if I were local to my computer sitting back on my 16 desk at Harvard and that's a standard. 17 So a proposed standard is: we think this is a good 18 idea, we don't see any problems with it; draft standard is 19 people have implemented it and it works and we don't see any 20 problems with it still and more than one is implemented and 21 they interoperate. And then four months after a document has 22 been approved as a proposed standard, it can then be 23 considered for full standard and full standard has to have 24 the same implementation rules but it also has to be proven 28 1 that people want to use it so that there is significant 2 deployment. So we don't make something a full standard 3 unless people are going to use it. 4 BY MR. BARON: 5 Q It is true, is it not, that apart from the IETF and the 6 IESG, that there are other standards for the Internet that 7 come from submissions by outside individuals or groups, 8 correct? 9 A There are, there are a number of bodies who make 10 specifications, most of them call them specifications for 11 some minutiae of legal ease that I don't quite understand, 12 rather than standards. A number of -- 13 JUDGE SLOVITER: Now you know how people feel if 14 they don't quite understand when somebody says something. Go 15 ahead. 16 (Laughter.) 17 THE WITNESS: I fully do understand, actually. I am 18 a fish out of water here, so... 19 There are many bodies who purport to make standards 20 or specifications that are for use on the Internet. The IETF 21 is the longest established of these and the one which has the 22 most international flavor and the one which is the, well, I 23 think anyway, since I'm a member of it, has the most 24 credibility as an open forum for development of standards. 25 We allow literally anybody who wants to participate. 29 1 Many of the other groups have a membership mechanism 2 where somebody purchases a membership or pays a membership 3 fee and at the access to the standards either during 4 development or when they're done are restricted, you have to 5 pay for them. But there are a dozen or more different groups 6 developing specifications for protocols to be used over the 7 Internet, those groups are open, large consortia such as the 8 W3C, the World Wide Web Consortium, or very focused ones such 9 as the Master Card and Visa just announced a payments 10 protocol to encrypt credit cards over the Net, and that is a 11 small consortium and they have come up with a standard. 12 And so there's a wide range of standards. Things in 13 the Internet as in things in real life are standards only in 14 the extent that people actually use what you've done. We can 15 create something we say is a standard and if nobody uses it, 16 well, we're whistling in the wind but it's not really a 17 standard unless people use it. 18 So the Web itself is something which did not develop 19 out of the IETF standards process, it developed out of 20 scientists wanting to avail the technology for use in over 21 the Internet and this was -- this was developed outside the 22 IETF, though now there's an activity within the IETF to 23 codify and clarify the Web standards, the HTTP Standards. 24 But, yes, there are many standards processes. 25 BY MR. BARON: 30 1 Q There are 53 or so full standards that have made it 2 through this process? 3 A Over the years, yes. 4 Q These are common protocols -- 5 A Something around that number. 6 Q These are common protocols in widespread use on the 7 Internet, correct? 8 A They were at the time they were adopted. Not all of them 9 are still in widespread use, some of them are quite historic. 10 Q And there are some two dozen draft standards in the 11 works, correct? 12 A Somewhere around that number, yes. 13 Q And about two or three more dozen proposed standards, 14 correct? 15 A That is correct. 16 MR. BARON: Your Honors, I'm going to, with the 17 Court's indulgence, approach the witness and provide him with 18 an exhibit. We have provided -- 19 JUDGE DALZELL: It's in our binder? 20 MR. BARON: They're in black binders. 21 JUDGE DALZELL: In the black binder. 22 MR. BARON: In the Defendant's Exhibits 1 through 23 45, for the Court. I will hand the witness a volume as well. 24 JUDGE SLOVITER: And this is going to illustrate 25 everything he just said in black and white? 31 1 (Laughter.) 2 THE WITNESS: In a little bit more detail, I think. 3 JUDGE DALZELL: Which exhibit is this again? 4 BY MR. BARON: 5 Q I wanted to turn to Exhibit 6, Mr. Bradner, I wanted to 6 give a concrete example of something that the IETF is working 7 on. You're familiar with this document, Mr. Bradner? 8 A Make sure we're on the same page. This is -- 9 Q It's -- 10 A -- the charter for the address auto configuration working 11 group? 12 Q That's correct, marked as Defendant's Exhibit 6? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Your name appears on the first page of the document, 15 correct? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q Could you explain how this document which is with title 18 "Address Auto Configuration" will help unsophisticated 19 computer purchases -- purchasers like myself to essentially 20 plug and play when they buy computers? 21 A The document itself won't help you a great deal. 22 Q Okay. 23 A But the -- this is, the document is a charter for a 24 working group within the IETF, within the IP Next Generation 25 area which is designed for to allow computers when they're 32 1 taken out of a shipping carton and plugged into the wall to 2 come up with that globally unique 128-bit address so that you 3 don't have to type it in. You thought that remembering was 4 bad, defining the right one and typing it was going to be 5 awful. So this is a mechanism by which the computer can 6 figure out a globally useful unique address and work with 7 other technologies, particularly what is called Dynamic Host 8 Configuration Protocol which is a way where a central 9 administrator can control what address some particular 10 computer gets. This is one of the activities of the IP Next 11 Generation area. 12 Q If I could re-formulate that, in other words, an 13 individual does not have to obtain an IP address from some 14 central source like Internet but an auto configuration will 15 assign a globally unique address, correct? 16 A It will assign a globally unique address but within 17 constraints of and a range of addresses which has been 18 provided from some central source, either directly or 19 indirectly. It doesn't just go pick a number out of the air, 20 it says that this network, this physical wire can have 21 addresses 1 through 99 within this sub, sub-grouping of 22 addresses and it will pick the one within that sub-group 23 which uniquely identifies this machine but it does not affect 24 what is called the high order bits or the more -- the more 25 general part of the address which is supplied to it from a 33 1 router on the local network, a computer on the local network. 2 Q Am I correct in saying that each IP address is unique on 3 earth? 4 A That is incorrect. 5 Q Let me, maybe I misphrased something from your deposition 6 in the last week, let me quote from Page 55, Line 18. I'd be 7 happy to supply the witness with a copy of the deposition 8 transcript. 9 A You can read it and -- 10 JUDGE SLOVITER: Would you like the written 11 deposition? 12 THE WITNESS: Well, why doesn't he read it, if I'm 13 still confused then I'll ask for a copy. 14 BY MR. BARON: 15 Q I asked a question that went: Question: "In lay 16 person's terms it would mean that a person such as myself who 17 may have difficulty loading in software or loading in 18 whatever is required to put a computer -- to get it to go 19 would have an easier time." 20 You answered at some length, but at one paragraph 21 you said "It will negotiate over the network for an address 22 automatically and" -- here's the key section -- "assign an 23 address which is globally unique and will uniquely locate 24 this computer on the global Internet." 25 Did I misstate the point? 34 1 A Your question was whether every IP address in the world 2 is unique and the answer is no. The -- the answer to the 3 question on the address auto configuration is if the address 4 auto, the node which is being configured is part of a 5 network, part of a network which is directly connected on the 6 Internet, then, yes, it will come up with a globally unique 7 address. But there are very many, thousands and thousands of 8 networks which are not connected to the global Internet and 9 they are using addresses which may be the same as somebody 10 else on the global Internet but it doesn't make any 11 difference because they're not part of the same picture. 12 And then there's a whole 'nother class which is 13 getting increasingly common where an organization such as a 14 university or a corporation, more likely a corporation, picks 15 addresses which are convenient to it and then has what is 16 called a fire wall between itself and the rest of the 17 Internet and that fire wall translates the addresses which 18 are local within its own corporation to addresses which are 19 unique on the internet, but it does so not one address per 20 node within the corporation but one address per speaker. 21 So if I am -- want to just talk within the 22 corporation, I never get an address which is unique on the 23 Internet. If I want to go out and make a connection out on 24 the Internet then I will be assigned the next address in the 25 row of the ones available that are unique on the Internet. 35 1 Normally there are very much fewer addresses on the window of 2 the Internet than there are inside the corporation and the 3 addresses on the window are reassigned by dynamically every 4 time somebody connects and disconnects, makes a section 5 through this fire wall and disconnects. This is because of 6 the pressure of addresses on the Internet, we are still in a 7 situation where the 32 bit IP Version Four address is under 8 some stress in terms of availability, so in order to make it 9 easier on corporations which may have very large internal 10 networks but may not be able to obtain an address, a globally 11 unique address, routable, globally unique address for every 12 one of their internal nodes, they get a small subsection, 13 maybe 500, maybe a thousand addresses which are reachable all 14 over the Internet to deal with the 100,000 internal 15 computers. It just means they can only have a thousand 16 communications going on at once. 17 JUDGE SLOVITER: Let me ask, could I follow that 18 through? I had a question on that as I read his original 19 affidavit. Let me give you an example and see if it has any 20 relevance to this. 21 The Federal Courts, the whole Federal Court system 22 is in this circuit interconnected on what we call CC Mail and 23 is in the process of becoming interconnected with Federal 24 Courts throughout the country. But it's not currently on the 25 Internet for various reasons, although there may be, I 36 1 believe, several Internet addresses or -- I'm not sure that's 2 the right technical way to put it -- that Courts or libraries 3 within the Federal Court system are getting so that they can 4 get the information available generally without compromising 5 the security of the Federal Court communications. 6 Now, is there a fire wall between -- is fire wall 7 the right term that insulates the Federal Courts from the 8 rest of the Internet? 9 THE WITNESS: It could be and isn't necessarily, it 10 could be simply that you have E-mail gateways such that 11 Electronic Mail, and CC Mail is a product name, by the way. 12 JUDGE SLOVITER: Mm-hmm. 13 THE WITNESS: That Electronic Mail and CC Mail goes 14 to a computer which then reconverts it from the CC Mail 15 format into the Internet format so it can be forwarded out on 16 the Internet. And then E-mail from the outside world can be 17 reformatted and forwarded inside, without having the ability, 18 for example, as I said Telnet, I could Telnet from here to my 19 desk at Harvard. Without have-- the E-mail gateway would not 20 permit the passage of Telnet packets so that somebody from 21 outside couldn't try and connect up and use one of the 22 internal court machines. 23 So there are different ways to get that isolation. 24 Fire Walls is one of them, Application Gateways is another 25 one. The modern Fire Walls tend to be Application Gateways 37 1 built into a single box, a number of different application 2 gateways, a Telnet Gateway, an FDP Gateway, a Web Gateway, 3 and an E-mail Gateway all built into the same box and many of 4 them do this address translation. 5 In your case it's more likely, speaking just as a 6 general indication, that the addresses inside are not even 7 translated to addresses outside, that the message is received 8 by the Gateway and retransmitted as if it were an entirely 9 new message using the address of the Gateway when it's going 10 out on the Internet, nothing related to the individual source 11 node where the message came from. 12 JUDGE SLOVITER: And there would be then, is it 13 correct that if you use such a gateway or whatever the 14 communication process is, there would be no way outside to 15 know what's really -- what's coming in inside or where it's 16 going inside? 17 THE WITNESS: That -- that actually is a key point. 18 We don't -- the Fire-- one of the aspects of Fire Walls is to 19 try and protect the knowledge of the structure of the inside 20 network from the outside, it's to hide the inside structure. 21 So from the outside, if I have an -- if I had your E-mail 22 address, I could send you E-mail but I wouldn't know how that 23 would get to you once it got past this gateway. I wouldn't 24 know, wouldn't be able to determine from the outside anything 25 to do with the structure of the Court network nor what 38 1 computers were there, where you read your E-mail or anything. 2 It's one of the functions of Gateways is to protect the 3 internal structure from visibility. 4 JUDGE SLOVITER: So then it has at least two 5 objects. One is because there are a multiplying number of 6 addresses and there are just or may not be enough addresses 7 and the other or many others are for other purposes? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 JUDGE SLOVITER: Okay. 10 BY MR. BARON: 11 Q Just a couple more questions on standards. You would 12 agree that a number of organizations are responsible for the 13 development of communications and operational standards and 14 protocols used on the Internet, correct? 15 A A number of organizations believe they are, yes. 16 Q The Internet wouldn't exist today as we know it without 17 some standards or some rules of the road, correct? 18 A That is correct. 19 Q And you recall saying in your deposition to me that we 20 are in a, quote, "standards development rich environment," 21 unquote, on the Internet and you stand by that? 22 A Yes, or sit by it or whatever. 23 Q You stated in your supplemental declaration that you 24 have, quote, "A complete understanding of how communications 25 are accomplished on the Internet today, including 39 1 communications such as E-mail use, Net and World Wide Web," 2 correct? Why don't we break down the Internet and start with 3 World Wide Web since most of the plaintiffs in this case in 4 the lawsuit have Web pages. 5 Mr. Bradner, can you describe for the Court what the 6 World Wide Web is? 7 A The World Wide Web is basically two things: it's the URL 8 that you mentioned earlier which is a pointer, a way to -- a 9 way to identify a particular location and piece of 10 information within that location on the Net and software that 11 interprets those pointers and goes off and retrieves the 12 documents that's been referenced by the URL. 13 Q You testified at your deposition last Friday and I'm 14 paraphrasing this, but correct me if I misstate something, 15 that the World Wide Web is a concept more than anything else, 16 it is comprised of a number of servers which can provide 17 information about requests in the same general concept as 18 other servers, new servers, FTP servers and the like and a 19 descriptive language which allows you to embed in a piece of 20 text locators defined to point to other documents. 21 Is that a good statement? 22 A The World Wide Web uses a -- 23 JUDGE DALZELL: You have to say yes or no so they 24 can get that. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, sorry. Yes. 40 1 MR. BARON: Thank you. 2 BY MR. BARON: 3 Q The World Wide Web uses a graphical user interface, 4 correct? 5 A The -- the World Wide Web client applications that I have 6 seen use a graphical user interface. 7 Q Why don't you describe for the Court what a graphical 8 user interface is? 9 A The early computer interfaces tended to be character 10 lined, lined character type interfaces where you typed words 11 and commands like if you've used DOS, it's a DOS interface, 12 it's where your view of the Net or your view of the command 13 into the computer is one which is a character stream, you 14 type in words with varying degrees of meaningfulness and 15 asking it to do something. 16 A graphical user interface tends to be a full screen 17 application where you have a -- an ability to, with a mouse 18 or with cursor, those little arrow keys on the keyboard, 19 locate something on the screen and tell it to activate a 20 program or to fetch a file or do something because you're 21 selecting something on the keyboard -- something on the 22 screen, rather than typing the name of something in on the 23 keyboard. 24 Q The graphical user interface was designed to be user 25 friendly, correct? 41 1 A The hope of the designers of graphical user interfaces is 2 that they're user friendly. The definition of "user" and 3 "friendly" are to the mind of the beholder. 4 (Laughter.) 5 Q In fact, the Web's user interface was designed to allow 6 people with a wide variety of computer skills, indeed even 7 with some -- some with minimal computer skills to access vast 8 quantities of information, correct? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q And the language for creating Web pages on the World Wide 11 Web was designed in a way that makes pages easy to write, 12 makes it easy to put up pages on servers and makes it easy to 13 distribute information around the world, correct? 14 A That is -- that was the statement of the people who 15 designed the language but I do notice that many of the books 16 on HTTP which is this language tend to be in the one to two- 17 inch or three-inch thick variety. So again this might, it 18 somewhat depends on one's interpretation of the word "easy." 19 Q HTTP or HTML? 20 A Oh, HTML, sorry. Right. I get those -- 21 Q You stated last week in your deposition -- 22 JUDGE DALZELL: HTML. 23 MR. BARON: That was going to be my next question, 24 your Honor. 25 BY MR. BARON: 42 1 Q Why don't you state for the Court what HTML is? 2 A Hypertext Markup Language or something of that general 3 ilk. There's -- 4 Q Were -- 5 A There's too many acronyms in this business. 6 JUDGE DALZELL: May I be the first to agree with 7 you? 8 (Laughter.) 9 JUDGE SLOVITER: And I'll be the second. 10 MR. BARON: We're going to get to HTML, Judge 11 Dalzell. 12 BY MR. BARON: 13 Q You stated last week in your deposition that you've 14 looked at thousands of Web pages and that there are probably 15 tens of thousands of Web pages in existence. That's correct, 16 right? 17 A Well, the tens of thousands would be a -- what I meant in 18 when we're speaking of that is there are tens of thousands of 19 locations where Web pages exist. The actual number of Web 20 pages in the sense of a screen image that you could retrieve 21 is certainly in the millions. I know I have on my own site 22 which is one server, one Web server with one home page, there 23 are thousands of screens that you can retrieve. So if you're 24 talking about Web pages in terms of images on a screen, then 25 there are millions of them. 43 1 Q Okay. Now, apart from individuals -- 2 JUDGE DALZELL: Excuse me, you say you have a Web 3 page? 4 THE WITNESS: I have a Web server. One of the 5 things that I do at Harvard is to run a test lab which 6 examines the performance of routers and things like, network 7 devices like that. And I put all of the information that 8 I've gotten from this examination up on line for anybody to 9 take a look at and there is thousands of pages, mostly of 10 numbers and some of pictures of performance curves available 11 from the Web server which is running on the computer sitting 12 on my desk. 13 BY MR. BARON: 14 Q Apart from individuals, Mr. Bradner, it would be a fair 15 statement to say that organizations including commercial 16 organizations such as companies selling potato chips or 17 pencils or cars use the Web as a way to provide information, 18 correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q And to sell their products, correct? 21 A At this point, more to provide information. In the 22 future, in the near future I trust, more will be in the 23 business of selling their products over the Internet. Right 24 now because of concerns of security and things of that 25 nature, few, relatively few companies are actually doing 44 1 retail over the Net, going and buying a bag of potato chips 2 over the Net is not something that is readily available today 3 although you can order a pizza if you happen to live in Santa 4 Clara, California. Delivery is a big problem if you're doing 5 it from here, but -- 6 (Laughter.) 7 A -- that -- soon you'll be able to do that. So I'm just 8 nuancing on the word you use of selling because right at the 9 moment it's more providing information than it is selling. 10 JUDGE DALZELL: Because you can't close the sale? 11 THE WITNESS: Actually you can and you can by 12 putting your credit card number in and actually the credit 13 card transaction over the Internet today is more secure than 14 giving your credit card to the waitress at the local 15 restaurant, but there is a feeling that it is not as secure. 16 And so there aren't many -- 17 JUDGE DALZELL: I thought there was a problem of 18 verification? 19 THE WITNESS: The -- it's the same -- 20 JUDGE DALZELL: Or so we're told. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, it's the same level of problem 22 of verification as what happens when someone calls up and 23 orders something from L.L. Bean over the telephone. L.L. Bean 24 has to go through a process with which they call up the 25 credit card company and say is this a valid credit card. 45 1 JUDGE DALZELL: And is it not true that you still 2 have to go outside the Internet to do that process? 3 THE WITNESS: Today that is true. I would hope that 4 in the relatively near future -- 5 JUDGE DALZELL: Defined as? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, Master Card and Visa did define 7 a language for moving of information about credit cards over 8 the Net, they said it would be, that this definition would be 9 available I think this month or next month. So in the next 10 six to nine months the function set to be able to send a 11 secure credit card to Master Card to ask whether it's a valid 12 card and whether the person has enough money to pay two 13 dollars or whatever your fee is going to be should be there, 14 but this is a projection rather than a statement from 15 knowledge of who is developing these. 16 JUDGE SLOVITER: How could phoning tell or assure 17 that it's a valid card? It might show or how can phoning 18 assure that X, that Judge Dalzell who gives the card number 19 is in fact Judge Dalzell rather than Judge Buckwalter? 20 THE WITNESS: Actually, it does not. And that's -- 21 it does not now when you call up for one of these mail order 22 houses. They do it on a basis generally of two things. One 23 is that in general when you order something you order it, 24 particularly if it's going to be shipped to you, you order it 25 shipped to you so that in some cases like American Express, 46 1 if it's a valuable shipment, will verify it's being shipped 2 to the billing address. And if it's not being shipped to the 3 billing address, you have to call them up and tell them no, 4 this is a special case and I want it to go someplace else. I 5 know because I had to do that. 6 Other credit card just ship -- know because they 7 have the shipping address of where it's going to, they have 8 an audit trail so in case somebody protests that this wasn't, 9 it wasn't me who placed this order, they can then do some 10 kind of tracking to try and figure out who it was who placed 11 the order. And the same thing would be true over the 12 Internet. 13 JUDGE SLOVITER: But would that be time consuming or 14 now that we have computers could that be easy and 15 instantaneous? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, in a real way ordering something 17 over the Internet over ordering something from a mail order 18 house over the telephone isn't going to change any of the 19 mechanisms involved other than how do you do it. You sit 20 there with a Web page and do some clicking on with your mouse 21 versus you call up on the telephone and tell the nice person 22 who answers the phone that you want an item on Page 67. 23 The rest of this, what happens behind the scenes, 24 works the same way today. There will be an increase in 25 efficiency when the verification process for verifying the 47 1 card, instead of requiring a separate communication normally 2 by a phone line with Master Card or Visa or American Express 3 could be done with electronic communication over the 4 Internet. 5 That will be a change in efficiency, but it doesn't 6 change the basic functionality which is they're depending on 7 you or your knowledge of the credit card number as your 8 identifier to identify yourself and the fact that they can 9 trace where the order was sent to as sort of a second guess 10 to figure out what happened when something goes awry. 11 BY MR. BARON: 12 Q Putting aside actually ordering merchandise by use of a 13 verified credit card via the Internet, it's certainly true, 14 isn't it the case that both individuals and companies can 15 have Web pages and that have a phone number on them or an 800 16 number or a toll free number for people to call to buy things 17 that they see advertised on the Net, isn't that correct? 18 A Yes, that is true. 19 Q Okay. Before we get into what individuals and nonprofit 20 organizations other than corporations can or cannot do, let's 21 talk about some technical matters including some -- 22 JUDGE SLOVITER: You mean we haven't been? 23 (Laughter.) 24 MR. BARON: Some more technical matters. 25 BY MR. BARON: 48 1 Q Including some descriptive language used for the World 2 Wide Web. Mr. Bradner, could you tell the Court what a Web 3 server is? 4 A A Web server, a server in general in computer jargon is 5 software which is running on a computer which is waiting 6 patiently for a command to be sent to it over a network and 7 that command, if it's an FTP server, it would be an FTP 8 command, FTP stands for File Transfer Protocol. If it's a 9 server which returns phone numbers it's going to be a phone 10 number query. If it's a database server, so lots of 11 different servers, they have the same basic function which is 12 just software running in the computer waiting for a query. 13 A Web server is one which is waiting for a query 14 which is in -- over the Net which is formed in Webese, in the 15 right format for a Web query. 16 Q You told me last week that the World Wide Web is sewn 17 together with URL's, is that a fair statement? 18 A Yes. Sorry. 19 Q Now, on a particular Web page there can be pointers to 20 other pages on the Web, correct? 21 A Those are the URL's of which we were just speaking. 22 Q And the pointers -- all right, they can be pointers to 23 other URL's. And Web pages can also have -- 24 A The pointers are the URL's. 25 Q Oh, the pointers are the URL's, okay, I stand corrected. 49 1 Web pages can also have pointers to files which contain audio 2 or sound, correct? 3 A That is correct. 4 Q In fact, Web pages can contain pointers to files in any 5 one of a number of forms containing any one of a number of 6 things such as text, sounds, still graphics or motion 7 graphics, correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q One can take a home movie on a Camcorder and digitize it 10 and transpose it in a way that would be viewable by clicking 11 on a pointer on a Web page, correct? 12 A Assuming that the person who had the client who had the 13 Web browser had the right software installed which allowed 14 them to download and then view motion graphics and assuming 15 that the motion graphics were stored in a format compatible 16 with the browser that the individual had. Both of those are 17 not assumptions you can make a hundred percent, but still 18 given that qualification, yes. 19 Q Could you tell the Court what a browser is? 20 A A browser is the jargon term for a Web client. The 21 client is the software running on a user's computer to access 22 some server and a Web browser is the software running on the 23 user's computer to access a Web server. 24 Q And what is a search engine? 25 A A search engine in this -- in the context of the Web is a 50 1 piece of software which, when given a query, it's a database 2 query responder, it's a server for database queries, it -- 3 you give it some information about something that you wish to 4 find and it goes to its database and tries to find it in that 5 database. 6 Search engines have fine degrees of sophistication 7 of ability to take just single words or words in context or 8 concepts in the sense of you can give some search engines a 9 piece of text, a newspaper article, and say this is 10 interesting to me, find other things that look like this. 11 And it's quite -- some of them are very sophisticated. They 12 look at their internal database to try and find other things, 13 other references in that database which are compatible with 14 the query that you gave it. 15 Q Let's get to the heart of things, Mr. Bradner, by 16 discussing something called HTML. 17 JUDGE SLOVITER: Before we do that maybe we should 18 let the witness have a break and we should all have a break. 19 Okay? 20 JUDGE DALZELL: I agree. 21 JUDGE SLOVITER: Ten minutes, I'm told. 22 THE COURT CLERK: Please rise. 23 (Court in recess; 10:40 to 10:55 o'clock a.m.) 24 JUDGE DALZELL: All right, Mr. Baron. 25 MR. BARON: Excuse me, your Honor, we were just 51 1 taking care of some housekeeping functions. 2 (Pause.) 3 BY MR. BARON: 4 Q Mr. Bradner, we were about to discuss HTML, could you 5 tell the Court what HTML is? 6 A It's a language, a descriptor language which is used to 7 define within a Web server how a document should appear on 8 the screen of the Web client, the browser. 9 Q Perhaps an example of HTML code would be helpful here. 10 Could you turn to Defendant's Exhibit that's marked 14 in the 11 black binder? 12 (Pause.) 13 Q Do you have that? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q Mr. Bradner, does this appear to you as the same exhibit 16 that I showed you at your deposition last Friday? 17 A Yes. 18 Q This represents the Worldwide Web home page of an 19 organization entitled Stop Prisoner Rape, which is one of the 20 plaintiffs in this lawsuit. And you will note -- and you 21 would agree, would you not, Mr. Bradner, that the first four 22 pages represent Web pages in their usual format and behind 23 those four pages is a series of pages which represent the 24 same text but in HTML code format, is that correct? 25 A That appears -- that is what it appears to be, yes. 52 1 Q Looking at the immediate page behind the usual format Web 2 pages, the top of the page says -- 3 JUDGE SLOVITER: These aren't paginated, are they? 4 MR. BARON: No, they are not, your Honor. 5 (Discussion held off the record.) 6 JUDGE DALZELL: You're talking about the first page 7 following the conventional -- 8 MR. BARON: That's correct, the -- 9 JUDGE DALZELL: -- conventionally arranged text? 10 JUDGE SLOVITER: So, the one that says -- 11 MR. BARON: That's correct and the -- 12 JUDGE SLOVITER: That's right, okay. 13 MR. BARON: That's correct, your Honor. 14 BY MR. BARON: 15 Q You see the bracket HTML and bracket Head, correct, Mr. 16 Bradner? 17 A Yes. 18 Q The designation Head represents the head of this HTML 19 document, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And you see the term Meta in the third and the fifth 22 line? 23 A Yes. 24 Q What does the Meta represent? 25 A As I said in my deposition and when we talked last 53 1 Friday, I did not and do not represent myself as an expert in 2 HTML. So, I would suggest that if you want to investigate 3 the details of HTML it would probably be better to ask 4 somebody who is. 5 Q But looking at it you're certainly more expert than I, 6 that the key words here are words that are in a field in a 7 Meta tag in the header, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. And there's a body to an HTML document, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And down at the bottom of this page there is a reference 12 to a URL. The HTML source code includes references to 13 particular URL's as a usual course, correct? 14 A Most of them do, yes. 15 JUDGE SLOVITER: Oh -- 16 JUDGE DALZELL: The very bottom, the very bottom. 17 MR. BARON: The very bottom of the page, your Honor, 18 it says "Bracket A-HREF equals," and then A-URL, which 19 represents another Web site. 20 THE WITNESS: Actually all you can tell about that, 21 URL, is that it represents a particular document someplace 22 which may or may not be on another site. 23 JUDGE SLOVITER: Where does it says URL? 24 JUDGE DALZELL: He said that is the URL. 25 JUDGE SLOVITER: Oh, okay. 54 1 BY MR. BARON: 2 Q Yes, that's a better description, Mr. Bradner. Now, in 3 your deposition last week you indicated that the type of 4 parental control rating scheme you preferred would be one in 5 which an individual's browser could be configured to send a 6 copy of a particular URL, including a URL in a document, to a 7 third-party rating service with a query to the rating 8 service, asking for information about the contents of the 9 URL, correct? 10 A Actually, to be very precise, about the contents of the 11 file or document pointed to by the URL. 12 Q Okay. Now, this would be one of the methodologies 13 suggested by the PICS scheme, P-I-C-S, which is a parental 14 control rating scheme being worked on by the W-3 consortium 15 located at MIT, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And that's the scheme that's embodied in Defendant's 18 Exhibit 15, if you could turn to that, the document which 19 says, "PICS: Internet access controls without censorship"? 20 A Yes, this is a document you showed me last week. 21 Q It is true, is it not, Mr. Bradner, that a browser under 22 this model of parental controls could look to the specific 23 header information in HTML source code for a tag or a label 24 that's put in the header by the content provider as part of 25 the overall rating scheme, isn't that correct? 55 1 A To be clear, you had just asked me about my preference 2 for a third-party rating service, it appears that you're 3 asking me now about PICS as a general concept, I just want to 4 be sure what it is that you're asking me. 5 Q Well, I'm asking PICS as a general concept. 6 A Okay. So, in PICS as a general concept you -- PICS 7 defines tags that you can place into a document, into the 8 header of a document, HTML document and other documents, 9 which can be used to convey information about the -- some 10 content of this document, that is correct. 11 Q And on Exhibit 15 at Page 6 of 9, at the bottom left-hand 12 corner, that's where the pages are identified, the second 13 full paragraph, if you would read along with me -- 14 JUDGE BUCKWALTER: Well, where are you? 15 JUDGE DALZELL: Page 6 of 9. 16 MR. BARON: It's Exhibit 15 and it's Page 6 of 9, 17 you can see at the bottom left hand of the document. 18 BY MR. BARON: 19 Q I'm going to concentrate on the second full paragraph, 20 starting with "Since," the word, "Since." And the second 21 sentence says, "The first is to" -- the first methodology of 22 PICS, is that correct, Mr. Bradner? 23 A That's actually a third sentence. 24 Q Well, it says, "The first is to embed labels in HTML 25 documents. This method will be helpful for those who wish to 56 1 label content they have created." That's one of the 2 methodologies embodied in the PICS parental control rating 3 standard, correct? 4 A That's one of the -- that's one of the methods in their 5 proposal, yes. 6 Q Okay. Indeed, you believe that as a technical matter one 7 can embed a character stream which could be interpreted by 8 browsers or other software if it is so desired, correct? 9 A In certain documents, certain types of files and 10 documents that is correct, in other types of files and 11 documents it's incorrect. 12 Q Well, it's your view, is it not, Mr. Bradner, that as a 13 technical matter of ease or difficulty that it is trivial to 14 embed a tag or a label in HTML source code, correct? 15 A It's a matter of typing a few characters, so, yes, in 16 concept; in implementation, if you have thousands of pages of 17 source code then it might be a little difficult, but in 18 concept it's easy, you just type in the character string. 19 Q You told me last Friday in your deposition that for your 20 own Web site, your own Web pages, the home page it would be 21 trivial to embed a tag, you could do it in five minutes, 22 correct? 23 A Well, actually it's a little more -- I said a little bit 24 more than that. My current Web server I do not happen to 25 have a document which is a home page. The Web server points 57 1 to a part of my -- the directory tree in my computer and it 2 has automatically created a home page, because I haven't 3 gotten around to creating one myself. So, it would take more 4 than five minutes, because I would have to create the 5 document in which to embed the string before embedding the 6 string and I couldn't tell how long that would take, it would 7 depend on how anal I got and how pretty a picture I wanted on 8 it. 9 Q Well, you said at Page 223 of your deposition -- 10 MR. BARON: -- I'd be happy at any appropriate point 11 to hand the witness the deposition if it will be -- 12 JUDGE DALZELL: Whenever you want it, you just say 13 so. 14 MR. BARON: -- helpful for the record. 15 BY MR. BARON: 16 Q You said at Page 223, Line 8, "Certainly on my site it 17 would be trivial for me to do," correct? 18 A Once I created a home page it would be trivial for me to 19 do it, yes. 20 Q Could you turn to Defendant's Exhibit 16? This exhibit 21 is one that I showed you last week, correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q It's titled, "Safe Surf Internet Rating Standard," are 24 you familiar with Safe Surf? 25 A As to the extent that you showed it to me last week. 58 1 Q Okay. On the second page of this exhibit at the top, the 2 first full sentence says, "If a majority of them spent five 3 to ten minutes to implement the system by marking their site 4 then a child-safe Internet could be realized in a matter of 5 weeks." Do you see that statement? 6 A I see that statement. 7 Q And do you agree with it? 8 A No. 9 Q You could build PICS compatible software into existing 10 browsers, correct? 11 A One could, I wouldn't proclaim to be a good enough 12 programmer to in any particular case. 13 Q That's technically feasible, correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Back to Exhibit 15, looking at the bottom of the Page 5 16 of 9 in the document. It's the page with blue Figure 4 at 17 the top, but I'm going to concentrate on the bottom of the 18 page. Do you see the sentence that starts, "Anything"? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q Let me read it to the record: "Anything that can be 21 named by a URL can be labeled, including resources that are 22 accessed via FTP, Gopher or Net News, as well as HTTP." You 23 agree, do you not, Mr. Bradner, that you may extend URL's to 24 provide labeling in some form across these applications on 25 the Internet, correct? 59 1 A To be very specific and concrete, you can extend the 2 format of URL's themselves to include additional information, 3 which could be used by a browser to decide on whether to 4 implement -- to instigate a particular application. You 5 would not actually do anything in the application itself, for 6 example FTP, you wouldn't modify FTP, you would modify the 7 browser to decide on whether or not to start up FTP based on 8 additional information in the URL. 9 JUDGE DALZELL: I want to get very concrete on this, 10 because it's an important issue. The Carnegie Library, Mr. 11 Croneberger is here for the Carnegie Library, it's card 12 catalogue is on line. Now, I take it the card catalogue is a 13 site, correct, it has a URL -- if I want to get to it it has 14 a URL, does it not? 15 THE WITNESS: The -- I can speak with knowledge 16 about the Harvard University College -- 17 JUDGE DALZELL: All right, fine, take that. 18 THE WITNESS: -- Library. The Harvard University 19 College Library, which is called Holis (ph.), is available as 20 an interactive program. So that you would Telnet to a server 21 at Harvard and then it presents a screen wherein you can do 22 an author search or a title search or things like that. 23 JUDGE DALZELL: Well, what I'm getting at is what I 24 think Mr. Barn is asking you, is the idea here that Harvard 25 or the Carnegie Library would rate its card catalogue? 60 1 THE WITNESS: In the context of Harvard's, Harvard's 2 Holis system, what would have to happen is any place where 3 somebody referenced Harvard's Holis system, a URL which 4 referenced it, any place where that any URL existed the 5 reference Holis would have to be extended to include a rating 6 of Harvard's system. 7 JUDGE DALZELL: That's what I mean. 8 THE WITNESS: This wouldn't be Harvard rating it, 9 because Harvard isn't creating the URL's that might be placed 10 at Brown or at the National Library Association or any place 11 else, because that is a pointer to Harvard and it's the 12 pointer in this concept which is modified, not the site 13 itself. In this particular case you do not get to Harvard 14 -- the way you access Harvard doesn't give an interactive way 15 for a browser to ask Harvard what its PICS rating is. 16 JUDGE DALZELL: Well, then I'm not understanding 17 this at all. The PICS rating -- assume that everybody adopts 18 this PICS system, okay? Will the Harvard card catalogue 19 that's on line, will it be rated or will just subsets of it 20 be rated? 21 THE WITNESS: There -- 22 JUDGE SLOVITER: And who has to do that rating? 23 JUDGE DALZELL: Exactly, and who has to do the 24 rating? 25 THE WITNESS: All right. I think using the Harvard 61 1 catalogue is exactly the kind of case where we can look at 2 it. The current technology, the current way the Harvard 3 catalogue is implemented is that you interact with the 4 Harvard catalogue with the same program that I would use to 5 interact with my computer sitting on my desk, which is 6 Telnet, it allows you to remotely be connected to that 7 computer and remotely interact with that computer as if you 8 were a local terminal; this is not a Web interface, it is a 9 local terminal interface. In that context Harvard has no way 10 of rating -- have no way of handing back a rating to anybody, 11 because what would have to happen instead is -- it's like you 12 would put ratings in T.V. Guide of T.V. shows, it's not that 13 the ratings are embedded in the shows, it's every place where 14 somebody pointed at Holis you would have to have that place 15 which did the pointing have the rating in it. So, Harvard 16 wouldn't have control over that. 17 JUDGE DALZELL: Yeah, but what I think Mr. Baron is 18 getting at is the feasibility of if you are going through a 19 card catalogue on line, which Mr. Croneberger describes in 20 detail in his declaration, would this marker be right next to 21 "Rebecca of Sullybrook Farm," and that's G rated, but then 22 when it has an Ice T lyric it would be NC-17? 23 THE WITNESS: Again -- 24 JUDGE DALZELL: I'm not being facetious here. 25 THE WITNESS: No, no, I agree. Under the current 62 1 Harvard system we wouldn't be able to implement this, I'm 2 saying under the current Harvard system that the pointers are 3 outside of Harvard's jurisdiction because they're pointers to 4 Harvard, not pointers within Harvard. So, other people would 5 rate Harvard. Another interface to this -- the same facility 6 which does not currently exist, but could be made to exist, 7 would be a Web Browser-type of interface to the Harvard 8 College library system. In that case the browser could be 9 able to see a rating and the rating would be actually buried 10 in the URL, when you said Ice T the URL, which specified 11 where the file was if you're going to retrieve it, then that 12 URL, you could embed in that URL the PICS parental warning 13 symbol. 14 JUDGE DALZELL: But my point, and it's a very 15 important point to this case, is since we know at least at 16 the Carnegie Library, and I would think that's in the 17 Carnegie Library would be up at Harvard, that they have the 18 Ice T lyrics, is the whole card catalogue NC-17, to take the 19 MPAA rating -- 20 THE WITNESS: In the -- 21 JUDGE DALZELL: -- because there is some dirty words 22 there, in some people's view? 23 THE WITNESS: The question that I was asked a little 24 while ago, whether it was easy -- the statement in the 25 exhibit here of whether it was easy for everybody just to do 63 1 this, assumes the very assumption -- the question you just 2 asked, which is that, yes, Harvard would have to rate its 3 entire catalogue as questionable because of some references 4 within that catalogue. The effort to go through and rate 5 every individual reference within the catalogue -- Harvard's 6 -- Carnegie Mellon's catalogue is a subset of Harvard's, of 7 course -- 8 (Laughter.) 9 THE WITNESS: -- it's some six or seven million 10 references in the Harvard catalogue, though I think on line 11 is three or four million at the moment, this would take 12 considerable effort to go through and -- 13 JUDGE DALZELL: And rate them. 14 THE WITNESS: -- rate every single one of them. 15 JUDGE SLOVITER: If we started -- if nobody had ever 16 put Shakespeare into this -- ever at all put it into the 17 system and somebody, a third party or somebody else went 18 through Shakespeare before they did this and began to rate 19 Shakespeare plays, is there some feasible method where 20 anybody, any library that then have Shakespeare could absorb 21 that rating? Or if Judge Dalzell, who has a younger person, 22 unlike mine, who can read anything, but would he be able to 23 find some mechanism whether she or he, I don't know, looked 24 at Shakespeare, wherever it might be? 25 THE WITNESS: There's two aspects to that and 64 1 actually something I should clarify. On the Harvard College 2 Library this is the library card catalogue, not the materials 3 itself, there are other libraries with materials itself on 4 line. For example, I was researching for a column that I do 5 and I was looking up Flatland, which is a -- some of you may 6 have read that, it's from the late 1800's, it's about a world 7 of two dimensions -- 8 JUDGE DALZELL: I read it in geometry. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, well, you should read it at least 10 there. And I wanted to look at it, because I was going to do 11 a column which happened to be based on that. So, I did a Web 12 search and I came up with a site where the text for that book 13 was on line, and I went on off and I read it. And this was a 14 library which provided this, it's one of the university 15 libraries, I forget which one, where that material was on 16 line. And I think the questions you were asking are more 17 related to places where the material is on line -- 18 JUDGE SLOVITER: Exactly. 19 THE WITNESS: -- rather than the Harvard University 20 catalogue, which is just saying, well, the rap songs are 21 available by going to the stacks and looking in Bin 3. So, 22 in the areas where the material is on line that's a much more 23 complex issue, that -- certainly the Harvard -- I don't think 24 the Harvard catalogue, the catalogue per se would be ever 25 considered verboten, but certainly some of the items within 65 1 that the catalogue references could be. There is a mechanism 2 where one in theory could do this. A lot of college 3 libraries, a lot of libraries in generally actually use 4 external sources when they create their card catalogue, they 5 send a list of titles to a commercial firm which has expanded 6 information about titles. So, you send -- you say I've got 7 Shakespeare's Hamlet and Edition 14, give a little bit more 8 information, they return to you the information block, which 9 includes the key words for use in searches and all of the 10 other information that you might want for your on-line 11 reference to this document, rather than you having to enter 12 all of this -- the individual university library having to 13 enter all of this information they go off to this third 14 party. And in theory that third party, if the rating has -- 15 if a rating has been done that third party could include that 16 rating in that block of information that they return when the 17 university or other library says tell me about Shakespeare's 18 Hamlet, 1912 Edition from whatever. 19 BY MR. BARON: 20 Q Well, I'd like you to return, however, to the methodology 21 that I pointed you to in Defendant's Exhibit 15, which is 22 that one of the methodologies in PICS, is it not, to -- that 23 the content creator, the content provider embed the tag in 24 their document rather than a third-party rating organization, 25 correct? 66 1 A As I said before, that is a feasible and reasonable thing 2 to do for some document, it is not possible for others; it is 3 not possible for binary files, for executables, for example, 4 you can't embed something in there because it would destroy 5 the integrity of the file itself -- 6 Q All right, but for -- 7 A -- it would make the file itself useless. 8 Q But for the Web pages that represent, for example, the 9 Stop Prisoner Rape Web page, that doesn't have a binary or an 10 executable file, so far as you know? 11 A As far as I know. It could put at the top of the page -- 12 embed in the HTML a coding, that is correct. 13 Q It is also technically feasible to tag a portion of a Web 14 site, correct? 15 A There is no -- in the Web there is nothing which -- there 16 is no structure which says this is a portion of a site and 17 this is not. Going back to your question earlier about the 18 URL that was at the bottom of the page, I made the point of 19 saying that this was a pointer to a file some place on some 20 server, there is nothing to say that this is structurally on 21 this server or any other server. So that if you are -- if 22 all of the access to some subsection of your disk is through 23 a particular home page and there are no URL's that exist any 24 place else in the world which have a more explicit pointing 25 down inside of a sub-subdirectory then, yes, if you put some 67 1 kind of labeling on the home page, on the first page of this 2 sub-tree you could imply something about the rest of the 3 tree. But that would only be making, again, the assumption 4 that nobody had a URL which pointed further down into that 5 tree, if they did they would never even look at that page, 6 they would go directly to the more specific document. 7 Q Well, I'm at a point where I think it's reasonable to 8 read a portion of your deposition last Friday and see if we 9 can seek clarification here, I'm at Page 222. Let me read 10 into the record -- 11 MR. BARON: -- and, with the Courts' indulgence, I 12 think it would be appropriate to show the witness the 13 deposition. 14 (Pause.) 15 BY MR. BARON: 16 Q I'm at Page 222 and around Line 17. 17 MR. BARON: If the Court wishes, I have copies of 18 some format of the deposition, but I do intend to read a few 19 sentences here. 20 BY MR. BARON: 21 Q You're answering me and you say, the witness, this is at 22 222, Line 17: "I could make a label and I could see that 23 most people could make a label and what, for a lack of a 24 better term, home page for the site which in some way 25 characterized the contents of the site and do that quite 68 1 economically, yes. It gets a little more complicated, the 2 site is like a library site that are flat laying on board, 3 where the characterizations of the contents vary on a per- 4 file basis." 5 Going down to Line 8: "Certainly on my site it 6 would be trivial for me to do, once I got the software and 7 got everything else and got a sample page to put up it would 8 probably take me five minutes to do that after I got all of 9 the crap in line, a technical term." 10 Moving on to Line 14: "And so, yes, it would be 11 economically feasible if indeed somebody" -- 12 MR. MORRIS: Your Honor, I would just ask that Mr. 13 Baron read the entire page, he is leaving out some important 14 points that -- and place the -- 15 JUDGE DALZELL: Well, you can get that -- 16 JUDGE SLOVITER: Well, you get cross-examination and 17 the witness has got the entire testimony in front of him. 18 MR. MORRIS: Okay, that's fine. 19 BY MR. BARON: 20 Q Continuing at Line 14: "And so, yes, it would be 21 economically feasible if indeed somebody were to distribute a 22 sample. Everything below here is fine file, putting that 23 into my environment would be actually quite easy to do." Is 24 that still your testimony, Mr. Bradner? 25 A Yes, and that -- and that's absolutely true and I think 69 1 that's what I just said. But it makes one assumption, which 2 I did not state when we talked last week which I did just 3 state, which is it makes the assumption that anybody 4 referencing my site would only have a reference to my, quote, 5 "home page," rather than a more explicitly reference to some 6 subsection point, which actually in my particular case I know 7 is not true. In my particular case some individual vendors 8 of equipment provide URL's pointing to their results, which 9 point down inside of my site, bypassing my home page and they 10 are saying, go and look at this file, which is underneath 11 this directory, underneath this directory, underneath this 12 directory, and go look at the results there. So, yes it is 13 true that I could modify a -- put in a home page, but that is 14 only effective if people look at -- are actually stopping at 15 the home page on the way to what they're looking for and that 16 may or may not be true. 17 Q The concept of coming up with some form of a standard way 18 to tag or label a warning sign is perfectly reasonable, 19 correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And it's technically possible, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Assuming that there was software or browsers in the 24 marketplace that could read the tag or label in HTML source 25 code that Web site would be blocked, correct? 70 1 A Again, it would be blocked if indeed that particular Web 2 page was one that the browser referenced on its way to the 3 document that it was seeking. In my case, I included in my 4 news column a URL for Flatland and that URL specified the 5 file which is Flatland's home page, not the file which is the 6 home page of the library system itself. So, if I -- if 7 somebody used the URL that I provided in the column they 8 would bypass any home page of the entire site and would go 9 directly to the Flatland file and would not see any tags that 10 happen to a site-wide tag, because their browser would never 11 read that page. 12 Q You stated in your supplemental declaration filed on 13 Tuesday at Paragraph 79 that, quote, "To my knowledge no 14 Internet access software or Worldwide Web browsers are 15 currently configurable to block material with such tags." Do 16 you recall that statement? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q You stated in the deposition that, however, the Netscape 19 owns the lion's share of the browser market, around 80 20 percent of the market, correct? 21 A I think I stated that Netscape has stated that they own 22 80 percent of the market. 23 (Laughter.) 24 Q Last Friday -- 25 JUDGE DALZELL: And they're not under oath. 71 1 (Laughter.) 2 BY MR. BARON: 3 Q Last Friday at your deposition I asked you specifically 4 how difficult would it be for Netscape to tweak its browser 5 to understand a tag or a label embedded in a header in HTML 6 that said adult, was in fact a site that was adult, and you 7 responded that, quote, "I certainly don't think it would be 8 an inordinate burden to do something of that form." You 9 stand by that statement? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You also agreed as a matter of technical feasibility that 12 Microsoft could do the same, correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And programs could be changed at AOL, C