From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jan 25 12:35:43 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA01057; Wed, 25 Jan 1995 12:35:43 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id MAA06706; Wed, 25 Jan 1995 12:34:11 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id MAA06701; Wed, 25 Jan 1995 12:26:21 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA21616; Wed, 25 Jan 1995 09:16:42 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.21] (arc-tac1-slip1.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.21]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA06419 for ; Tue, 24 Jan 1995 14:16:32 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 14:16:37 -0800 To: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: Dave Crocker Subject: Who is ON the Internet? Folks, A few of months ago, there was some animated discussion trying to determine whether a given user should be considered to be "on" the Internet. This was triggered by a NY Times article and some research it used. Out of that discussion, I gravitated on 3 terms (very much wanting to limit the list to 3, for simplicity.) Since that time, I've come to believe we need 4, in order to make an essential distinction, namely between those who run Internet applications on their home machine (PC, or whatever) versus those who use third-party services (Netcom, AOL, etc.) Here's the current set of terms I've gravitated to. I'd appreciate feedback on the number of terms, the choice in vocabulary, and/or in their descriptions: o Visible Internet Full-time, direct attachment o Native Internet User runs applications o Mediated Internet Provider runs applications for user o Messaging Internet Access via email & news Visible is most used for those running Internet services. Native mode is primarily for those running TCP/IP on their platforms and accessing the Internet via routers. Mediated uses the 3rd-party services. Strictly speaking, it is the 3rd-party service that is ON the Internet and not their customers (the users), but the reality is that those customers very much view themselves as on the Internet and they can get a very rich set of services. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jan 26 06:56:38 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA14289; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 06:56:38 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id GAA07689; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 06:54:33 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id GAA07684; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 06:49:44 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from heifetz.msen.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA13908; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 06:49:37 +1100 (from cfctech!network.cfc.com!t8585eh@msen.com) Received: from cfctech.UUCP by heifetz.msen.com with UUCP (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rXC3r-000ZbXC; Wed, 25 Jan 95 13:03 EST Received: from serve.network.cfc.com by cfctech.cfc.com with smtp (Smail3.1.27.1 #3) id m0rXBtd-0002wRC; Wed, 25 Jan 95 12:52 EST Received: from d098035.devl.mis.cfc.com by serve.network.cfc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07053; Wed, 25 Jan 95 12:53:52 EST Message-Id: <9501251753.AA07053@serve.network.cfc.com> Received: by d098035.devl.mis.cfc.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01096; Wed, 25 Jan 95 12:53:50 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Eric Hermanson Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 12:53:49 -0500 To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Government regulation of Internet Access Providers? I am interested in finding out whether the US Government has any plans for regulating the Internet Access Provider industry in the near or far future? About two years ago, the Government began to regulate the cellular phone industry (one of the regulations on that industry is that there cannot be more than two cellular providers in any one metropolitan area. Now SOMEONE please explain the thinking behind that restriction to me!) I suspect that regulation for the Internet is upcoming, but I would like to know when it is planned, and what the regulations might look like. Any info via email would be appreciated. Thank You, Eric Hermanson From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jan 26 08:17:03 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA16577; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:17:03 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id IAA07807; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:14:33 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id IAA07802; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:13:57 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mon.cise.nsf.gov by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA16512; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:13:48 +1100 (from steve@mon.cise.nsf.gov) Received: by mon.cise.nsf.gov (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for big-internet@munnari.oz.au id AA07694; Wed, 25 Jan 95 16:15:07 -0600 Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 16:15:06 -0600 (EST) From: Stephen Wolff Subject: Re: Government regulation of Internet Access Providers? To: Eric Hermanson Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: <9501251753.AA07053@serve.network.cfc.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've been out of government for a week now, but at the time I left there were as far as I knew no plans to regulate ISPs. Of course the Federal Communications Commission and all the state Public Utility Commissions are very much aware of the burgeoning Internet market, so lack of regulation is NOT due to ignorance. -s On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Eric Hermanson wrote: > I am interested in finding out whether the US Government has > any plans for regulating the Internet Access Provider industry > in the near or far future? About two years ago, the > Government began to regulate the cellular phone industry (one > of the regulations on that industry is that there cannot be > more than two cellular providers in any one metropolitan area. > Now SOMEONE please explain the thinking behind that > restriction to me!) I suspect that regulation for the > Internet is upcoming, but I would like to know when it is > planned, and what the regulations might look like. > > Any info via email would be appreciated. > > Thank You, Eric Hermanson > From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jan 26 08:43:53 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA14741; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:16:19 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id HAA07732; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:14:32 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id HAA07727; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:11:59 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from atlas.xylogics.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA14581; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:11:43 +1100 (from gmalkin@xylogics.com) Received: by atlas.xylogics.com id AA13900 (5.65c/UK-2.1-940401); Wed, 25 Jan 1995 15:17:23 -0500 From: Gary Scott Malkin Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 15:17:23 -0500 Message-Id: <13900.199501252017@atlas.xylogics.com> To: t8585eh@network.cfc.com Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: Eric Hermanson's message of Wed, 25 Jan 95 12:53:49 -0500 <9501251753.AA07053@serve.network.cfc.com> Subject: Government regulation of Internet Access Providers? I believe the Cellular restriction had to do with FCC bandwidth allocations. Obviously, no such limit exists on the Internet. However, if anyone does know of any Government plans to regulate the Internet (highly unlikely given the current congress ;-) please let me know too, so I can write lots of "leave well enough alone" letters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary Malkin Cheap, Fast, Good (617) 272-8140 Pick two! From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jan 26 09:20:01 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA18025; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:56:56 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id IAA07855; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:54:33 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id IAA07850; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:52:36 +1100 Precedence: list From: barns@cove.mitre.org Received: from mwunix.mitre.org by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA15307; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:37:01 +1100 (from barns@cove.mitre.org) Received: from gateway.mitre.org (gateway.mitre.org [128.29.31.10]) by mwunix.mitre.org (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id PAA25620; Wed, 25 Jan 1995 15:33:19 -0500 Received: from cove.mitre.org by gateway.mitre.org (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25273; Wed, 25 Jan 95 15:33:18 EST Received: by cove.mitre.org (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20435; Wed, 25 Jan 95 15:33:18 EST Message-Id: <9501252033.AA20435@cove.mitre.org> To: Eric Hermanson Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU, barns@cove.mitre.org Subject: Re: Government regulation of Internet Access Providers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jan 95 12:53:49 EST." <9501251753.AA07053@serve.network.cfc.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 15:33:17 -0500 You might do well just to call the FCC and hunt down appropriate people and see what they have to say. I'm one of those who feels, in a vague kind of way, that some sort of regulation of some aspects of the Internet is inevitable, and the question is just "how much, what kind, how soon, which aspects". To me it is not reasonable to assume that government will be decoupled from any critical infrastructure resource. If the Internet becomes that critical to making daily life work, then some explicit relationship to government is needed. Consider the possibility of a natural disaster damaging much but not all of the communications capability to and from the area affected by the disaster. Although I suppose there will always be debate about what is a proper government function, I think there will be broad support for the idea that the government should be able to tell an Internet service provider what to do if that will get someone dug out of a pile of rubble before they expire. The problem as always is to try to ensure that only "reasonable" things are done, as opposed to "arbitrary" or "unreasonable" things. All yet to be defined, of course. I've been told that one or more FCC people have attended some of the NSF-sponsored meetings on the NAPs but just in a listening role. I cannot lay my hand on a name of a person. I had the impression that they were more in a "thinking" than a "planning" stage, but who knows. /Bill Barns From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jan 26 09:24:06 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA18814; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:16:20 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id JAA07900; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:14:34 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id JAA07895; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:10:26 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA18455; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:10:17 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.29] (arc-tac1-slip3.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.23]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA14343 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 1995 14:10:06 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 14:10:08 -0800 To: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: Dave Crocker Subject: Who is ON the Internet? - revised Folks, Well, I've already gotten several messages having painfully consistent comments about the list. It appears that the first two labels are confusing. So, I'm suggesting a different first term, and some more commentary about the meanings: o Server Internet Full-time, direct Internet attachment running TCP/IP. Directly visible to others attached to the Internet. o Native Internet User runs Internet applications directly on their platform, but might not be accessing the Internet fulltime or directly (e.g., might be going through a firewall or a part-time dial-up line.) o Mediated Internet Provider runs applications for user. o Messaging Internet Access via email & news The term 'server' might imply that a regular user machine would not be able to be attached in the mode, but of course they CAN. The point is that this sort of fulltime attachment is required by those providing service, rather than the typical user machine. An alternative term for the 'native' mode is "direct". I was using direct originally, but decided that things like firewalls make the term inappropriate. In general, the guidance I received in the earlier discussion was that the terms needed to be meaningful to users, rather than being biased towards the technical community. Comments? d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jan 26 10:33:45 1995 Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA21543; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:33:45 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA02342 Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:18:53 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id KAA08001; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:14:34 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id KAA07996; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:11:08 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA20680; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:11:00 +1100 (from ihanson@pcs.dec.com) Received: from inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA02159 Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:10:09 +1100 (from ihanson@pcs.dec.com) Received: from pcsbst.pcs.dec.com by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/10Aug94) id AA29733; Wed, 25 Jan 95 13:54:09 -0800 Received: by pcsbst.pcs.dec.com (5.65/jmh-inet-gateway-sendmail-V1.05); id AA22495; Wed, 25 Jan 1995 22:53:11 +0100 Message-Id: <9501252153.AA22495@pcsbst.pcs.dec.com> To: Dave Crocker Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU, ihanson@pcsbst.pcs.dec.com Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jan 95 14:16:37 PST." Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 22:53:04 +0100 From: "Iain K. Hanson" X-Mts: smtp Hi, Just some feedback as requested. Personaly I don't see the need for as seperate category of 'Messaging Internet' in that I would see it as a qualifier to the other 3 terms. Such a qualifier could then have many potential values, messaging being one. For instance, I believe that our access here at DEC would be classified visable but is not full access due to the policy implemented on our firewall. Given the possible permutations of limited access and that email users can access email to application gateways then perhaps just the qulifiers 'Limited' & 'Full' would be appropiate. If I understand the terms and descriptions correctly, I would perhaps use the term Permenant in place of Visable and On-Demand in place of Native. /ikh From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jan 26 11:31:25 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA19497; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:36:13 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id JAA07936; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:34:34 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id JAA07927; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:28:24 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from inet-gw-3.pa.dec.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA17521; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:42:22 +1100 (from dee@skidrow.tay.dec.com) Received: from skidrow.tay.dec.com by inet-gw-3.pa.dec.com (5.65/10Aug94) id AA01457; Wed, 25 Jan 95 13:34:54 -0800 Received: by skidrow.tay.dec.com (5.65/MS-081993); id AA08335; Wed, 25 Jan 1995 16:39:50 -0500 Message-Id: <9501252139.AA08335@skidrow.tay.dec.com> To: Eric Hermanson Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Government regulation of Internet Access Providers? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jan 95 12:53:49 EST." <9501251753.AA07053@serve.network.cfc.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 16:39:50 -0500 From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd (Beast)" X-Mts: smtp Eric, From: Eric Hermanson Precedence: list Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) To: big-internet@munnari.oz.au >I am interested in finding out whether the US Government has >any plans for regulating the Internet Access Provider industry >in the near or far future? About two years ago, the >Government began to regulate the cellular phone industry (one I don't understand what you are talking about here. There was no cellular phone industry until the FCC granted the radio frequencies they use for that purpose. The cellular providers are both phone companies and radio spectrum users and have always been regulated and for a hell of a lot longer than two years. >of the regulations on that industry is that there cannot be >more than two cellular providers in any one metropolitan area. > Now SOMEONE please explain the thinking behind that >restriction to me!) I suspect that regulation for the The idea was that, while the wire line phone companies were competant and well financed and could probably have outmanouvered any upstarts for the franchises, maybe the upstarts would be more innovative or something. So the FCC decided to grant two franchieses in each area, one of which was required to *not* be a wire line phone company. >Internet is upcoming, but I would like to know when it is >planned, and what the regulations might look like. What do you consider an Internet Access Provider to be? Organizations that own lines and satellite links and microwaves that cross state lines? Some teenager that runs a BBS in their bedroom that provides email access via uucp? Something inbetween? Why do you think any additional regulations are needed or are going to be applied in addition to the regulations that organizations in the United States are currently subject to? >Any info via email would be appreciated. > >Thank You, Eric Hermanson Donald From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jan 27 00:34:14 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA16257; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 21:56:36 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id VAA08617; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 21:54:47 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id VAA08603; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 21:37:35 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from merit.edu by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA12957; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 20:10:42 +1100 (from bill.simpson@um.cc.umich.edu) Received: from Bill.Simpson.DialUp.Mich.Net (pm002-12.dialip.mich.net [141.211.7.148]) by merit.edu (8.6.9/merit-2.0) with SMTP id EAA16535 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 04:10:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 08:38:31 GMT From: "William Allen Simpson" Message-Id: <3797.bill.simpson@um.cc.umich.edu> To: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Reply-To: bsimpson@morningstar.com Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised > From: Dave Crocker > o Server Internet > Full-time, direct Internet attachment running TCP/IP. > Directly visible to others attached to the Internet. > I'd call this "Attached". And say direct only once. And mention the provider aspects. o Attached Internet Full-time, direct Internet attachment running TCP/IP. Visible to others attached to the Internet. This sort of attachment is required by those providing services to others on the Internet, such as .... > o Native Internet > User runs Internet applications directly on their platform, > but might not be accessing the Internet fulltime or directly > (e.g., might be going through a firewall or a part-time > dial-up line.) > o Detached Internet User runs native TCP/IP applications directly on their platform, but might not be accessing the Internet fulltime or directly. This sort of attachment is typical for service subscribers using on-demand, part-time, dial-up links. It also may be limited by firewalls, or network address translation. > o Mediated Internet > Provider runs applications for user. > Add, "The user accesses the service through a method other than TCP/IP, such as a terminal connected to a Unix host, often through a modem." > o Messaging Internet > Access via email & news > How about "Message-only". And mention BBS's, UUCP, Bitnet, and other such examples. Bill.Simpson@um.cc.umich.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jan 27 02:56:37 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA25638; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 02:56:37 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id CAA08945; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 02:54:52 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA08942; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 02:52:39 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA25419; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 02:52:36 +1100 (from sgoldste@nsf.gov) Received: from note1.nsf.gov by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA17777 Fri, 27 Jan 1995 02:30:52 +1100 (from sgoldste@nsf.gov) Received: from [128.150.55.4] (sgoldste.cise.nsf.gov) by note1.nsf.gov with SMTP id AA42810 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:28:29 -0500 X-Sender: sgoldste@128.150.11.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:28:50 -0500 To: bsimpson@MorningStar.Com From: sgoldste@nsf.gov (Steve Goldstein) Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU I like Bill's suggested categories. Make much sense. Bill: would TAP-users (adaptor run on the host machine) be detached or mediated? --SG ================================================================ Steven N. Goldstein Program Director, Interagency & International Networking Coordination Div. of Networking and Communications Research & Infrastructure National Science Foundation 4201 Wilson Boulevard, Room 1175 Arlington, VA 22230 Tel: +1-703-306-1949 (Extension 1119) FAX: +1-703-306-0621 sgoldste@NSF.GOV ================================================================ From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jan 27 06:56:13 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA03665; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 06:36:46 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id GAA09158; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 06:34:57 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id GAA09139; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 06:24:25 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA00658; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 05:18:20 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.21] (arc-tac1-slip6.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.26]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA19201; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:18:08 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:18:12 -0800 To: bsimpson@morningstar.com From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Bill (and Steve G.), First, thanks for the added explanatory text. I think it helps. On the matter of labeling, however, let me re-iterate who these terms are for: They are for the great unwashed. They are not for the technical community, which by and large needs and uses finer-grained terms, with a focus on the technical details, rather than the user perception. For the average user, most or all of these modes of access involve being attached, as far as they are concerned. The challenge is to choose terms which relate to the end-user view of differences. After many presentations, discussions, etc., I've come to believe that the two major factors that users perceive is a) duration of attachment, and b) what applications they can/do run. That accounts for the terms I've gravitated to. At 12:38 AM 1/26/95, William Allen Simpson wrote: >> From: Dave Crocker >> o Server Internet >> >I'd call this "Attached". And say direct only once. And mention the >provider aspects. > > o Attached Internet > > o Detached Internet > I also wonder whether everyone would agree that an organization with a fulltime attached, using a firewall, means that the users within that organization are "detached". Mumble. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jan 27 11:56:59 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA16983; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:56:59 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id LAA09432; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:55:02 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id LAA09426; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:50:35 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA16462; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:50:31 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.37] (arc-tac1-slip1.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.21]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA21819; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:50:23 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:50:25 -0800 To: bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bill Fink) From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Bill, At 4:16 PM 1/26/95, Bill Fink wrote: >I agree with your basic breakdown but I would keep them orthogonal, i.e.: Let me try to reiterate that this list of terms is not intended for a primarily technical audience. People process lists and categories with what one may euphemistically describe as a wide range of abilities. The purpose of a list like this is to have the broadest use possible, since it is trying to answer a question that has broad concern. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jan 27 13:45:26 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA21795; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:37:31 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id NAA09560; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:35:13 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id NAA09555; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:28:39 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA14844; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:16:29 +1100 (from bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov) Received: by wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov (5.65/1.35) id AA12735; Thu, 26 Jan 95 19:16:02 -0500 From: bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bill Fink) Message-Id: <9501270016.AA12735@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised To: dcrocker@Mordor.Stanford.EDU (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 19:16:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: bsimpson@morningstar.com, Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: from "Dave Crocker" at Jan 26, 95 10:18:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1442 > For the average user, most or all of these modes of access involve > being attached, as far as they are concerned. The challenge is to choose > terms which relate to the end-user view of differences. After many > presentations, discussions, etc., I've come to believe that the two major > factors that users perceive is > > a) duration of attachment, and > b) what applications they can/do run. > > That accounts for the terms I've gravitated to. Dave, I agree with your basic breakdown but I would keep them orthogonal, i.e.: Type of Connection Type of Service ------------------ --------------- 1. Permanent Internet A. Full Service (full-time, dedicated (all/most widely available connection) Internet services) 2. On-Demand Internet B. Limited Services (part-time, dial-up (a small, restricted subset PPP/SLIP connections) of available services with e-mail only being a special case) 3. Dial-Up to Internet (part-time, dialup modem connection to intermediary providing Internet access) Internet access could be any combination of the above, e.g. 1A, 2B(e-mail,WWW), or 3A. Your Messaging Internet might then be 3B(e-mail,news) although someone behind a really restrictive firewall might also qualify as a 1B(e-mail). Just some additional thoughts for your consideration. -Bill From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jan 27 15:17:58 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA22842; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:57:05 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id NAA09601; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:55:04 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id NAA09587; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:42:42 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from clark.net by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA15047; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:20:00 +1100 (from hcb@clark.net) Received: (hcb@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.5) id PAA02635; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:45:06 -0500 From: Howard Berkowitz Message-Id: <199501262045.PAA02635@clark.net> Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised To: dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:45:01 -0500 (EST) Cc: bsimpson@MorningStar.Com, Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: from "Dave Crocker" at Jan 26, 95 10:18:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1074 > > Bill (and Steve G.), > > First, thanks for the added explanatory text. I think it helps. > > On the matter of labeling, however, let me re-iterate who these > terms are for: They are for the great unwashed. They are not for the > technical community, which by and large needs and uses finer-grained terms, > with a focus on the technical details, rather than the user perception. > > For the average user, most or all of these modes of access involve > being attached, as far as they are concerned. The challenge is to choose > terms which relate to the end-user view of differences. After many > presentations, discussions, etc., I've come to believe that the two major > factors that users perceive is > > a) duration of attachment, and > b) what applications they can/do run. > > That accounts for the terms I've gravitated to. Apropos of your comment on firewalls and our previous email, I really think there is a "c"--is a resource/user visible to/ reachable by the public Internet. > From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 03:23:54 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA22617; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 03:16:36 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id DAA10358; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 03:15:08 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id DAA10342; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 03:09:51 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from atlas.xylogics.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA20915; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 02:24:22 +1100 (from gmalkin@xylogics.com) Received: by atlas.xylogics.com id AA15531 (5.65c/UK-2.1-940401); Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:30:15 -0500 From: Gary Scott Malkin Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:30:15 -0500 Message-Id: <15531.199501271530@atlas.xylogics.com> To: dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu Cc: bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov, Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: Dave Crocker's message of Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:50:25 -0800 Subject: Who is ON the Internet? - revised The descriptions are good. I assume you're just looking for good names now. How about: unlimited, limited, remote and message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary Malkin Cheap, Fast, Good (617) 272-8140 Pick two! From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 04:22:10 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA23881; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 03:56:08 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id DAA10413; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 03:55:08 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id DAA10397; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 03:43:20 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA23418; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 03:43:05 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.24] (arc-tac1-slip14.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.34]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA25461; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:42:44 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:42:47 -0800 To: Gary Scott Malkin From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU At 7:30 AM 1/27/95, Gary Scott Malkin wrote: >The descriptions are good. I assume you're just looking for good >names now. How about: unlimited, limited, remote and message. Gary, What does the user get from the first 3 of your terms? What will they guess is 'limited'? Isn't ALL Internet access 'remote'? d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 05:37:52 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA28031; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:37:52 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id FAA10563; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:35:09 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA10548; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:17:51 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from atlas.xylogics.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA25621; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 04:35:45 +1100 (from gmalkin@xylogics.com) Received: by atlas.xylogics.com id AA05994 (5.65c/UK-2.1-940401); Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:41:54 -0500 From: Gary Scott Malkin Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:41:54 -0500 Message-Id: <5994.199501271741@atlas.xylogics.com> To: dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: Dave Crocker's message of Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:42:47 -0800 Subject: Who is ON the Internet? - revised Dave, The problem is that any term you're likely to choose, given your requirements, is almost certainly going to have a duel meening. Think about it. If you want to choose terms which are meaningful and memorable for the general public, then they must be terms with which they are already familiar. Hence, you'd be giving an additional meaning to them. I just don't see how we can come up with terms that are general enough for the public, while still accurately describing the type of connection. What I was thinking about was: unlimited, complete access (less some administrative restrictions perhaps) all the time; limited, more heavily restricted access which is not always available; remote, access which is provided by someone else ("provided" might be a better term, but I'd suggested that before); and message, which most people seem to agree on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary Malkin Cheap, Fast, Good (617) 272-8140 Pick two! From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 06:22:58 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA27188; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:15:56 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id FAA10513; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:15:09 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA10510; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:13:35 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from atlas.xylogics.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA27082; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:13:20 +1100 (from gmalkin@xylogics.com) Received: by atlas.xylogics.com id AA09226 (5.65c/UK-2.1-940401); Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:19:02 -0500 From: Gary Scott Malkin Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:19:02 -0500 Message-Id: <9226.199501271819@atlas.xylogics.com> To: dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: Dave Crocker's message of Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:08:21 -0800 Subject: Who is ON the Internet? - revised > So, you are perhaps thinking along the lines of: > Full-time > Part-time > Mediated > Messaging I can live with Full-time and Part-time (although time isn't the only factor), but Mediated just doesn't sound right. I think even Indirect would be better. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary Malkin Cheap, Fast, Good (617) 272-8140 Pick two! From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 06:35:24 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA27323; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:17:32 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id FAA10532; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:16:45 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA10496; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:09:34 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA26992; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 05:08:58 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.24] (arc-tac1-slip7.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.27]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA26092; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:08:18 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:08:21 -0800 To: Gary Scott Malkin From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU At 9:41 AM 1/27/95, Gary Scott Malkin wrote: >Think about it. If you want to choose terms which are meaningful >and memorable for the general public, then they must be terms >with which they are already familiar. Hence, you'd be giving an Sigh. Yeah. I wonder if there are any reporters on this list? Would any of them care to comment on the discussion, so far? >What I was thinking about was: unlimited, complete access (less >some administrative restrictions perhaps) all the time; limited, 24-hour Internet: All IP, All The Time.... (Maybe the Internet really WILL replace radio...) >more heavily restricted access which is not always available; >remote, access which is provided by someone else ("provided" So, you are perhaps thinking along the lines of: Full-time Part-time Mediated Messaging ?? (I'm not in love with 'provided' because ALL users get 'provided' access, except perhaps users who work for UUNet, PSI, Sprint, MCI, or the like.) d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 09:07:43 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA00736; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 06:55:59 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id GAA10655; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 06:55:10 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id GAA10639; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 06:40:59 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mv.MV.COM by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA00275; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 06:40:54 +1100 (from ldr@VeriTech.com) Received: by mv.mv.com (8.6.9/mv(b)/mem-940616) id OAA26738; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:40:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:40:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Lee D. Rothstein" X-Sender: ldr@mv.mv.com To: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Cc: Steve Welch Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised In-Reply-To: <9226.199501271819@atlas.xylogics.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > So, you are perhaps thinking along the lines of: > > > Full-time > > Part-time > > Mediated > > Messaging What? You're going to leave out those of us with chronic cortical electrodes (running IP over HIPPI)? ;-) But yes, I really do think this conversation has run (or should have run) its course. <> Lee D. Rothstein | LDR@VeriTech.com | 603-424-2900 | Fax: 603-424-8549 <> <> VeriTech | 7 Merrymeeting Drive | Merrimack, NH 03054-2934 | USA <> <> Information Technology (IT) Verification & Leadership <> From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 09:11:26 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA01759; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 07:35:56 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id HAA10700; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 07:35:10 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id HAA10683; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 07:17:54 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from ginger.lcs.mit.edu by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA29473; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 06:24:06 +1100 (from jnc@ginger.lcs.mit.edu) Received: by ginger.lcs.mit.edu id AA26046; Fri, 27 Jan 95 14:23:55 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 14:23:55 -0500 From: jnc@ginger.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Message-Id: <9501271923.AA26046@ginger.lcs.mit.edu> To: dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu, gmalkin@xylogics.com Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU, jnc@ginger.lcs.mit.edu From: Gary Scott Malkin any term you're likely to choose, given your requirements, is almost certainly going to have a duel (sic - JNC) meening. Yes, I do find that we often tend to come to blows over our definitions here, don't we! :-) Noel From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 09:18:51 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA01858; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 07:38:09 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id HAA10717; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 07:37:22 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id HAA10697; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 07:31:43 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Daisy.ee.und.ac.za by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA29399; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 06:22:13 +1100 (from barrett@daisy.ee.und.ac.za) Received: by daisy.ee.und.ac.za (Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0rXwEQ-0007UhC; Fri, 27 Jan 95 21:21 GMT+0200 Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 21:21:17 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Alan Barrett To: Dave Crocker Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > So, you are perhaps thinking along the lines of: > > Full-time > Part-time > Mediated > Messaging The top two categories are not distinguished only by full-time versus part-time, but also by the impact of firewalls, NAT boxes, etc. I tend to use the term "full Internet access" for the top category. How about: Full; Restricted; Indirect; Messaging? --apb (Alan Barrett) From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 09:55:55 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA06871; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 09:55:55 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id JAA10878; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 09:55:11 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id JAA10862; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 09:52:38 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from netserv.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA03834; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 08:35:05 +1100 (from smh@netserv.com) Received: from [198.37.128.120] (smh-ppc.netserv.com [198.37.128.120]) by netserv.com (8.6.9/smh-1.1) with SMTP id NAA01392; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:23:12 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:30:41 -0800 To: Alan Barrett , Dave Crocker From: smh@netserv.com (Scott M. Hinnrichs) Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU At 11:21 AM 1/27/95, Alan Barrett wrote: >> So, you are perhaps thinking along the lines of: >> >> Full-time >> Part-time >> Mediated >> Messaging > >The top two categories are not distinguished only by full-time versus >part-time, but also by the impact of firewalls, NAT boxes, etc. > >I tend to use the term "full Internet access" for the top category. How >about: Full; Restricted; Indirect; Messaging? From my experience the issues are: what does the user have to go through to get a network connection, and then what does he get after getting connected. I feel that Full can be the same as the first two (good proxy setup), and might even include the third if the Vendor has a complete interface so Full doesn't delineate the access adequately. Restricted applies to all of them in that even in the Desktop Access case access may be restricted at the router/firewall (port 666), and in the other three it is definately Restricted. All except the first are Indirect, so that doesn't help. Messaging is available from all 4 methods, so that isn't limiting enough. How about: Direct: Desktop Access (From LAN -> WAN without Proxy, PPP/SLIP too) Indirect: Proxy Access (Same as above, but goes through proxy) Indirect: Vendor Mediated Access (Like Netcom, Compuserv, Genie, AOL, etc) Indirect: Email Only Access (No other access available) Any comments? Scott From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jan 28 13:05:34 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA06003; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 09:36:11 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id JAA10835; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 09:35:11 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id JAA10830; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 09:29:09 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA02667; Sat, 28 Jan 1995 07:57:40 +1100 (from bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov) Received: by wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov (5.65/1.35) id AA14312; Fri, 27 Jan 95 15:57:29 -0500 From: bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bill Fink) Message-Id: <9501272057.AA14312@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? - revised To: dcrocker@Mordor.Stanford.EDU (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:57:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: from "Dave Crocker" at Jan 26, 95 04:50:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1598 > At 4:16 PM 1/26/95, Bill Fink wrote: > >I agree with your basic breakdown but I would keep them orthogonal, i.e.: > > Let me try to reiterate that this list of terms is not intended for > a primarily technical audience. People process lists and categories with > what one may euphemistically describe as a wide range of abilities. The > purpose of a list like this is to have the broadest use possible, since it > is trying to answer a question that has broad concern. > > d/ Dave, I was actually trying to look at this from the perspective of a non-technical audience, but I may not have explained things clearly. Synthesizing several other people's comments, the categories could be described as: 1. Full Service, Permanent Internet 2. Limited Service, Permanent Internet 3. Full Service, On-Demand Internet 4. Limited Service, On-Demand Internet 5. Full Service, Indirect Internet 6. Limited Service, Indirect Internet The limited service categories could be further qualified, e.g. only e-mail. I think these categories could be fairly easily understood by the lay user. Perhaps there are better adjectives for the different qualifiers (maybe vendor instead of indirect, for example). Also, some categories, such as 4, may not be very common, but that's alright. I also considered the comment about maybe there should be another qualifier, namely degree of access to the Internet, but finally decided that if they didn't have full Internet access, albeit possibly with limited services, then they really shouldn't count as an Internet host/user. -Bill From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Tue Jan 31 06:23:56 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA29873; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 03:56:47 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id DAA14367; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 03:55:34 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id DAA14351; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 03:40:45 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from noc.tor.hookup.net by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA26051; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 02:03:27 +1100 (from aca@hookup.net) Received: from aca.tor.hookup.net (aca.tor.hookup.net [165.154.7.71]) by noc.tor.hookup.net (8.6.9/1.255) with SMTP id KAA07805; Mon, 30 Jan 1995 10:03:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199501301503.KAA07805@noc.tor.hookup.net> X-Sender: aca@tor.hookup.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 10:03:51 -0500 To: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: aca@hookup.net (Allan Crawford Associates Ltd.) Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE X-Mailer: unsubscribe - support@aca.ca From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Tue Jan 31 19:54:14 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA04942; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 19:36:32 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id TAA15131; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 19:35:39 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id TAA15115; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 19:17:49 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA28684; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:57:42 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.32] (arc-tac1-slip12.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.32]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA12288 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 1995 21:57:28 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="========================_24006336==_" Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 21:57:30 -0800 To: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: Dave Crocker Subject: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 --========================_24006336==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Folks, First, many thanks for the many comments from many of you(...) I've converged on some terms which, I believe, juggle the requirements. Some of you won't be too thrilled, since there seemed to be some difference of opinion about the basic approach to defining nomenclature. For the rest, I hope the terms are comfortable. The second term (Client) was a last-minute entry. I originally liked the suggested "part-time" but decided that that was misleading, particularly for those on corporate networks that are attached full-time (albeit requiring users to go through firewalls. One concern is that Client and Mediated might get confused. Whaddaya think? The terms are intentionally independent of each other, since no natural progression seemed to fit the sequence. Please do still send comments & suggestions. I'm hoping to send this in as an internet-draft in a day or two. d/ --========================_24006336==_ Content-Type: text/plain; name="On_the_Internet.txt"; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="On_the_Internet.txt" Network Working Group D. Crocker Internet-Draft: DRAFT-CROCKER-ON-xx.{txt,ps} Brandenburg Consulting Expiration <7/95> To be or not be "on" the Internet STATUS OF THIS MEMO This document is an Internet-Draft. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-Drafts. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet- Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as ``work in progress.'' To learn the current status of any Internet-Draft, please check the ``1id-abstracts.txt'' listing contained in the Internet- Drafts Shadow Directories on ftp.is.co.za (Africa), nic.nordu.net (Europe), munnari.oz.au (Pacific Rim), ds.internic.net (US East Coast), or ftp.isi.edu (US West Coast). 1. INTRODUCTION The Internet is many things to many people. It began as a technology and has grown into a global service. As it has grown and details of the technology and the service have become complex, so has the confusion when trying to determine whether a given user is "on" the Internet. This note is an attempt to aid Internet consumers and providers in determining the basic types of end-user service that distinguish critical differences in Internet attachment. The list was developed primarily for the perspective of users, rather than for the technical community. A curious implication is that most of the definitions do not rely on the direct use of the underlying Internet connectivity protocols, TCP/IP. For many technical discussions, therefore, these terms will not be appropriate. However, it is felt that users are primarily interested in application services and it is use of Internet standard application protocols that determines assignment of most of the labels. 2. LABELS Moving from "most" to "least" Internet access: FULL-TIME INTERNET Permanent Internet attachment running TCP/IP, primarily appropriate for allowing the Internet community to access application servers. Directly visible to others attached to the Internet, such as through ICMP echo (ping). CLIENT INTERNET User runs applications that use Internet protocols, directly on their own platform, but might not be running underlying Internet protocols (TCP/IP), might not have full-time access, such as through dial-up, or might have constrained access, such as through a firewall. When active, Direct users might be visible to the general Internet, but such visibility cannot be predicted. MEDIATED INTERNET User runs no Internet applications on their platform. Provider runs applications that use Internet protocols on their platform, for the user. User has simplified access to the provider, such as dial-up terminal connectivity. MESSAGING INTERNET User has no Internet access, except through electronic mail and through netnews, such as Usenet or a bulletin board service. Since messaging services can be used as a high- latency transport service, this level of service is quite powerful, though not interactive. 3. SAMPLE USAGE The test of a nomenclature is, of course, its application to real- life situations. Two simple cases involve home users. If a user accesses the Internet by running a terminal program on their PC and then dials up a public service which provides the Internet applications, then that user has Mediated Internet service. The public service has Client or Full-time service, but the user does not. On the other hand, users who access via SLIP or PPP are running Internet applications on their own PCs and they have Client Internet service. Many corporations now have a full-time link to the Internet. The link is based on TCP/IP and usually has a number of Internet servers running, for email exchange and for making public corporate data available to the rest of the world, such as through the World Wide Web and Gopher. Clearly, the corporation is "on" the Internet, with Full-time Internet service. What about a user in that corporation? Many corporations today separate their internal internet from the public Internet via a firewall. If a user from the internal internet has a desktop computer and reaches out to the Internet, through the firewall, by running any Internet applications, such as a Web browser, then that user has Client Internet service. Some corporations will not allow this, instead requiring all software which touches the public Internet to be run on specially- administered machines which are part of the corporation's firewall suite of services. Hence, users must make a terminal connection to the special machines, from there running the Internet applications. Such users have Mediated Internet service, the same as home users who dial up a public service. 4. SECURITY CONSIDERATIONS This specification does NOT, itself, provide or define any security-related mechanisms. However it does describe scenarios with different security implications for users and providers. Readers of this discussion are cautioned to consider those implications when choosing a service. 5. ACKNOWLEDGMENTS Development of these definitions was spurred by many public and private discussions in which confusion over Internet access reigned. Convergence on the final set of terms was the result of discussion on the Big-Internet mailing list, particularly from comments made by Alan Barret, Howard Berkowitz, Noel Chiappa, Steve Goldstein, Iain Hanson, Gary Malkin, Bob McKisson, Tim O'Reilly, Dave Piscitello and Bill Simpson. This does not mean that any of them necessarily endorses the terms and definitions provided, merely that their notes assisted my thinking on the topic. 6. CONTACT David H. Crocker Brandenburg Consulting 675 Spruce Dr. Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA Phone: +1 408 246 8253 Fax: +1 408 249 6205 --========================_24006336==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu --========================_24006336==_--