From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Feb 1 07:46:26 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA28916; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:56:46 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id FAA15775; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:55:49 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA15759; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:54:11 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA28721; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:54:00 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA24701 Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:36:50 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.22] (arc-tac1-slip13.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.33]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA15241; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:34:10 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:34:15 -0800 To: Howard Berkowitz From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Howard, At 9:14 AM 1/31/95, Howard Berkowitz wrote: >Full-time Internet is meaningful to me. Client Internet also >makes sense. I wonder, however, whether it might be more meaningful >to new users coming from a workgroup culture to call "Full time" >"Server Internet." This has been one of the thoughts I, too, have been debating. I came down on the side of using "Full-time" since there's been a tendency for people to refer to the "best" Internet connectivity as being "full" Internet access, but I think that Server would an entirely reasonable term. FOLKS: HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS? WHAT SITS BEST WITH YOU? FULL-TIME vs. SERVER >don't want to consider X servers!). awww, geee. I don't know, Howard. Seems pretty small-minded of you... >but decided that routers were transparent to the intended >audience of these definitions. True? yup. that's actually one of the benefits of focussing on *applications*. >application, so that the nontechnical user distinguishes >a web browser, for example, from a local word processing >application? Is there a need to distinguish local application >from local workgroup client/server applications (that may or >may not use IP)? In a number of places, I actually use the term 'protocol' when tied to application, but I can beef up this to be stronger. The idea is that one must use an Internet Application Protocol, such as http, ftp, smtp, telnet, finger, ... d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Feb 1 08:17:29 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA03494; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:17:29 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id IAA15901; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:15:54 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id IAA15896; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:12:39 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from black-ice.cc.vt.edu by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA03243; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:12:35 +1100 (from valdis@black-ice.cc.vt.edu) Received: from localhost (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by black-ice.cc.vt.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA16444; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:11:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199501312111.QAA16444@black-ice.cc.vt.edu> To: Dave Crocker Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:34:15 PST." From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:11:47 -0500 Sender: valdis@black-ice.cc.vt.edu On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:34:15 PST, Dave Crocker said: > At 9:14 AM 1/31/95, Howard Berkowitz wrote: > >Full-time Internet is meaningful to me. Client Internet also > >makes sense. I wonder, however, whether it might be more meaningful > >to new users coming from a workgroup culture to call "Full time" > >"Server Internet." > > This has been one of the thoughts I, too, have been debating. I > came down on the side of using "Full-time" since there's been a tendency > for people to refer to the "best" Internet connectivity as being "full" > Internet access, but I think that Server would an entirely reasonable term. > > FOLKS: HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS? WHAT SITS BEST WITH YOU? > > FULL-TIME vs. SERVER Well.. this, my friends, is a can of worms. I pondered about this for quite some time.. The host I'm posting this from (black-ice.cc.vt.edu) is a machine that's full-time connected to the internet, and I'm the only real user on it, doing mostly e-mail, netnews, and program testing/development. This calls for one type of classification for this usage. Unfortunately, the same machine is *also* one of the campus NTP servers, and a DNS secondary for a number of domains, and a DNS primary for a another domain. This calls for another type of classification. What's the plan for machines that fit into one or more categories? Valdis Kletnieks Computer Systems Engineer Virginia Tech From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Feb 1 10:28:19 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA19960; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 02:18:15 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id CAA15570; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 02:15:46 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA15554; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 02:08:20 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from atlas.xylogics.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA19523; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 02:08:11 +1100 (from gmalkin@xylogics.com) Received: by atlas.xylogics.com id AA00740 (5.65c/UK-2.1-950130); Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:09:22 -0500 From: Gary Scott Malkin Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:09:22 -0500 Message-Id: <740.199501311509@atlas.xylogics.com> To: dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: Dave Crocker's message of Mon, 30 Jan 1995 21:57:30 -0800 Subject: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 Very nice. I think we can all live with these definitions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary Malkin Cheap, Fast, Good (617) 272-8140 Pick two! From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Feb 1 12:50:32 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA09358; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:36:49 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id KAA16031; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:35:53 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id KAA16015; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:19:14 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA08629; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:19:06 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA28774 Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:02:47 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.21] (arc-tac1-slip1.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.21]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA17381; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:00:02 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:00:05 -0800 To: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU At 1:11 PM 1/31/95, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote: >Unfortunately, the same machine is *also* one of the campus NTP servers, ... >This calls for another type of classification. > >What's the plan for machines that fit into one or more categories? Valdis, I view the terminology as a hierarchy. Hence, the machine you are on counts as having Server status. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Feb 1 16:01:50 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA11860; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:37:03 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id LAA16096; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:35:52 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id LAA16082; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:16:48 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA27661; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:23:41 +1100 (from hcb@clark.net) Received: from clark.net by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA24514 Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:23:29 +1100 (from hcb@clark.net) Received: (hcb@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.5) id MAA29535; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:14:28 -0500 From: Howard Berkowitz Message-Id: <199501311714.MAA29535@clark.net> Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 To: dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:14:22 -0500 (EST) Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: from "Dave Crocker" at Jan 30, 95 09:57:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1195 Dave, Looks good in this version. Two thoughts, however, or more a thought and a question. Full-time Internet is meaningful to me. Client Internet also makes sense. I wonder, however, whether it might be more meaningful to new users coming from a workgroup culture to call "Full time" "Server Internet." This would be consistent with the industry (as opposed to the protocol) usage of client/server. I think there is a general industry implication that servers are full-time (and no, I don't want to consider X servers!). I wondered if this might be limiting in the sense that Internet devices such as routers are not usually considered "servers," but decided that routers were transparent to the intended audience of these definitions. True? Now, the question. You talk about the varying classes of access, and mention the term "Internet application" in most of them. Does there need to be a definition of Internet application, so that the nontechnical user distinguishes a web browser, for example, from a local word processing application? Is there a need to distinguish local application from local workgroup client/server applications (that may or may not use IP)? Howard From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Feb 1 16:24:54 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA18330; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:56:48 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id NAA16235; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:55:53 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id NAA16210; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:37:05 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA17196; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:37:03 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.21] (arc-tac1-slip14.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.34]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA18546; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 18:36:32 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 18:36:35 -0800 To: bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bill Fink) From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU At 5:22 PM 1/31/95, Bill Fink wrote: >> CLIENT INTERNET >> >I understand the other qualifications but what did you have in mind >for "but might not be running underlying Internet protocols". I would >think a Client Internet user would be running IP, albeit maybe only Not necessarily. For example, many sites now use the SOCKS package, to have the client Internet application run on the user machine, but to have the Internet access done through a firewall system. Such a setup does not require that the communication between the user machine and the firewall be done over IP. Hence, I could have FTP/IPX, or somesuch. My intent is to class such users as having Client access, because they ARE running legitimate, full-fledged Internet application protocols, even if they aren't using Internet Transport services. >As an editorial note, I think you meant "Client users" rather than >"Direct users". Thanks. it's been changed in the master version. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Feb 1 19:56:11 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA29924; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 18:56:56 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id SAA16497; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 18:55:59 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id SAA16481; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 18:52:32 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA13918; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:23:41 +1100 (from bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov) Received: from wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA02293 Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:23:35 +1100 (from bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov) Received: by wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov (5.65/1.35) id AA19024; Tue, 31 Jan 95 20:22:15 -0500 From: bill@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov (Bill Fink) Message-Id: <9502010122.AA19024@wizard.gsfc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 To: dcrocker@Mordor.Stanford.EDU (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 20:22:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: from "Dave Crocker" at Jan 30, 95 09:57:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 875 Dave, I like your categories with the current descriptions. > CLIENT INTERNET > > User runs applications that use Internet protocols, directly > on their own platform, but might not be running underlying > Internet protocols (TCP/IP), might not have full-time > access, such as through dial-up, or might have constrained > access, such as through a firewall. When active, Direct > users might be visible to the general Internet, but such > visibility cannot be predicted. I understand the other qualifications but what did you have in mind for "but might not be running underlying Internet protocols". I would think a Client Internet user would be running IP, albeit maybe only part-time or on-demand or restricted via a firewall. As an editorial note, I think you meant "Client users" rather than "Direct users". -Bill From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Feb 2 00:31:33 1995 Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA06494; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:13:27 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA15912 Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:03:05 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id VAA16660; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:56:00 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id VAA16644; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:42:44 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from sigma.itu.ch by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA01767; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:49:21 +1100 (from STEPHEN.GEIS@ITU.CH) Received: from MR.ITU.CH by ITU.CH (PMDF V4.3-7 #4298) id <01HMJ4ATXZ2OB130GH@ITU.CH>; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:47:52 CET Received: with PMDF-MR; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:47:12 CET Mr-Received: by mta TIES.MUAS; Relayed; Wed, 01 Feb 1995 08:47:12 +0100 Mr-Received: by mta TAU; Relayed; Wed, 01 Feb 1995 08:47:27 +0100 Disclose-Recipients: prohibited Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 08:47:12 +0100 (CET) From: Stephen Geis 730 5008 Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 In-Reply-To: To: Dave Crocker Cc: Big-Internet Message-Id: <5412470901021995/A40432/TAU/11920A6F0A00*@MHS> X-Envelope-To: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Autoforwarded: false Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Importance: normal Priority: normal Ua-Content-Id: 11920A6F0A00 X400-Mts-Identifier: [;5412470901021995/A40432/TAU] Hop-Count: 1 Dave: You asked: > FOLKS: HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS? WHAT SITS BEST WITH YOU? > > FULL-TIME vs. SERVER > "Server" implies that the site is providing some sort of service via Internet (even if only NTP), while "full-time" is neutral about what the connection is used for. As this discussion has progressed, your definitions have undergone an evolution from the technical connectivity point of view towards the user/application viewpoint. Consequently, it would be consistent to make the change to "server" - with the result that a full-time connected system which is used only as a client ought to be classed as a client. This doesn't conflict with the conditional "might not have full-time access" in the client definition. The definition for Server Internet (or full-time server?) should be scaled back on the connectivity details, at least so as not to insist on being open to ICMP. There are sites which run their application servers behind a firewall, so that the server itself isn't pingable (although the firewall may be). Suggested text: [FULL-TIME] SERVER INTERNET Permanent Internet attachment running TCP/IP, with application server(s) accessible to others attached to the Internet. The phrase in the draft "for allowing the Internet community to access application servers" implies a specific, if widespread, access policy. >>application, so that the nontechnical user distinguishes >>a web browser, for example, from a local word processing >>application? Is there a need to distinguish local application >>from local workgroup client/server applications (that may or >>may not use IP)? > > In a number of places, I actually use the term 'protocol' when tied >to application, but I can beef up this to be stronger. The idea is that >one must use an Internet Application Protocol, such as http, ftp, smtp, >telnet, finger, ... > The distinction between "protocol" and "application" is useful since it is likely that, in the future, user applications which are primarily local as the user sees them (e.g., word processor) may embed Internet Application protocols (for example to obtain thesaurus data). Stephen Geis International Telecommunication Union (ITU) Geneva, Switzerland geis@itu.ch From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Feb 2 07:08:21 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA21460; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 05:16:50 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id FAA17145; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 05:16:05 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA17142; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 05:13:41 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA21350; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 05:13:36 +1100 (from ihanson@pcs.dec.com) Received: from inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA23274 Thu, 2 Feb 1995 04:57:20 +1100 (from ihanson@pcs.dec.com) Received: from pcsbst.pcs.dec.com by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/10Aug94) id AA20300; Wed, 1 Feb 95 09:40:54 -0800 Received: by pcsbst.pcs.dec.com (5.65/jmh-inet-gateway-sendmail-V1.05); id AA18517; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 18:40:40 +0100 Message-Id: <9502011740.AA18517@pcsbst.pcs.dec.com> To: Dave Crocker Cc: Howard Berkowitz , Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU, ihanson@pcsbst.pcs.dec.com Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 95 10:34:15 PST." Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 18:40:34 +0100 From: "Iain K. Hanson" X-Mts: smtp > FOLKS: HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS? WHAT SITS BEST WITH YOU? > FULL-TIME vs. SERVER I tend to prefer SERVER, mainly as a natural contrast to CLIENT from a users perspective. Also, I tend to dislike FULL-TIME because it tends to imply that the others are not fuul time. A possible alternative to these might be PROVIDER. >One concern is that >Client and Mediated might get confused. I don't personally see a problem here. The rest looks pretty good. /ikh From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Feb 2 10:18:41 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA24829; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 06:56:59 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id GAA17252; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 06:56:06 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id GAA17238; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 06:54:57 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA18133; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 03:37:47 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.22] (arc-tac1-slip3.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.23]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA22128; Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:36:22 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:36:26 -0800 To: Stephen Geis 730 5008 From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 Cc: Big-Internet Stephen, Many thanks for your thoughtful comments. I fear you have highlighted yet-another issue that needs to be made much clearer in the text... Since my response is somewhat extended, as usual, I'll summarize: the effect of the note you've sent, along with some of the other notes expressing vocabulary preferences, is that I now believe the first term should simply be "full" and the document needs to emphasize the access type as providing "potential" for a given level of service, rather than labeling the current use. At 11:47 PM 1/31/95, Stephen Geis 730 5008 wrote: >"Server" implies that the site is providing some sort of service via Internet >(even if only NTP), while "full-time" is neutral about what the connection is I agree. Worse, there has been some ambivalence between 'how the machine IS used' versus 'how the machine CAN BE used.' This, I think, is the key to the issue you raise. I think that this is slightly distinguished by labeling the whole list as determining 'access' from 'service', but perhaps that is too fine vocabulary distinction. >user/application viewpoint. Consequently, it would be consistent to make the >change to "server" - with the result that a full-time connected system which is >used only as a client ought to be classed as a client. This doesn't conflict I agree with your logic. But not your choice. I think that a list which labels "how the machine IS used" would be reasonable but now that you've highlighted the point, I find that my own preference is very much more to label that nature of the application POTENTIAL, rather than the specific choices made by the user. In other words, what sort of Internet application service is the user's machine capable of, rather than what sort has actually been chosen. >The definition for Server Internet (or full-time server?) should be scaled back >on the connectivity details, at least so as not to insist on being open to >ICMP. There are sites which run their application servers behind a firewall, >so that the server itself isn't pingable (although the firewall may be). At the least, the discussion in the 'sample' section needs to clarify this point more. My feeling is that there are two, very different, types of firewall intervention. One simply filters packets, allowing some internal machines to access the net and others not to. Filtering can be further refined to allow only outgoing access (or only outgoing to some machines) versus ones that allow connections in both directions. Filtering to allow only outgoing is problematic, since it stops FTP from working, but with the popularity of gopher and the web, this is less crippling than in the past. The other firewall mode is one in which the user's machine can be thought of as interacting only with the firewall machine and that machine as being a very active participant in the user's session. The SOCKS package is an example of this. While the user IS able to run application protocols out to the Internet, all of the underlying mechanism is mediated by the firewall. Mediated is a mild term. The firewall removes the user-provided underlying protocol structure and puts its own in. While this latter mode does allow a user to run an application server that is visible to the Internet, the Internet sees that server actually as running on the firewall. While perhaps a little strange to phrase this way, the firewall is allowing the user to run a remote firewall process; but the process is logically part of the firewall. Hence, I would very much class the user's machine as having Client access. Boy. I'll bet I've made things MUCH clearer, now... d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Feb 2 22:04:20 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA29424; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 21:58:14 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id VAA18010; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 21:56:24 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id VAA17973; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 21:49:14 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA29074; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 21:47:09 +1100 (from kre@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mundamutti.cs.mu.OZ.AU by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA15467 Thu, 2 Feb 1995 21:45:07 +1100 (from kre@munnari.OZ.AU) To: Dave Crocker Cc: Big-Internet Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 1995 08:36:26 -0800." Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 21:43:46 +1100 Message-Id: <2184.791721826@munnari.OZ.AU> From: Robert Elz Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:36:26 -0800 From: Dave Crocker Message-ID: I find that my own preference is very much more to label that nature of the application POTENTIAL, I've been a little ambivolent abut the issue so far, none of the suggestions seemed quite perfect, but here I believe you've hit on the key point - and it has suggested a possible set of labels to me. For your four categories, in the order you've been listing them, how about 1) unlimited (potential) internet access 2) restricted (potential) internet access 3) provided internet access (with unlimited or restricted potential) 4) messaging only internet access I suspect "ulimited potential" is pretty clear. I use "restricted" rather than "limited" because of possibble overloading of the latter term, a "limited company" need not be providing "limited access". The restrictions that make for restricted access could be of almost any kind, restricted by a firewall, restricted to outbound connections only, restricted to certain times of day, ... Provided is to imply someone else is providing the internet service that's being used - they may be providing either unlimited, or restricted, access to the internet. Messaging is basically just your term again. So, how does that set fit your aims? kre From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Feb 3 06:58:46 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA13217; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 04:18:52 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id EAA18392; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 04:16:28 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id EAA18382; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 04:14:49 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA08762; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 02:13:15 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.22] (arc-tac1-slip10.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.30]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id HAA28887; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:13:09 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:13:12 -0800 To: Robert Elz From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Version 3 Cc: Big-Internet Robert, At 2:43 AM 2/2/95, Robert Elz wrote: > 1) unlimited (potential) internet access Semantically, "Full" would seem equivalent. Besides, it's shorter and more assertive. > 2) restricted (potential) internet access Each successive term pertains to some sort of restriction. I guess that what I would prefer to do, with each successive term, is to try to highlight the nature of the restriction. By saying 'client', we indicate what you can and cannot do with that machine, without major assistance by another machine. > 3) provided internet access (with unlimited or > restricted potential) Well, those folks who provide Internet access are called "providers" so one could argue that ALL access is "provided". Mumble. The term 'mediated' seems to work pretty well, even based on some random experimentation I've done with non-technical folks. >So, how does that set fit your aims? Well, I personally found it helpful in putting me through some more exercise to see how well the latest list I proposed works. While not your intent, I'd say that your list was quite helpful... (assume a smiley face appears here.) d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Mon Feb 6 03:46:17 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA01073; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:59:26 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id AAA21846; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:57:33 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id AAA21830; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:47:44 +1100 Precedence: list From: RZMERK@NYX.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE Received: from nyx.uni-konstanz.de by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA28944; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:02:36 +1100 (from RZMERK@NYX.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE) Received: from nyx.uni-konstanz.de by NYX.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6047; Sun, 05 Feb 95 14:02:07 MEZ Received: from NYX.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE (RZMERK) by nyx.uni-konstanz.de (Mailer R2.08 R208004) with BSMTP id 4576; Sun, 05 Feb 95 14:02:06 MEZ Date: Sun, 05 Feb 95 13:59:51 MEZ Subject: unsubscribe To: BIG-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Message-Id: <950205.135951.MEZ.RZMERK@NYX.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE> X-Acknowledge-To: please unsubscribe (or tell me please where to unsubscribe) RZMERK@NYX.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE merci Andreas Merkel From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Mon Feb 13 19:52:07 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA17638; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:40:39 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id QAA01145; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:40:17 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id QAA01118; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:21:51 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA01881; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:03:18 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.23] (arc-tac1-slip3.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.23]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA01235 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:01:52 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:01:56 -0800 To: Big-Internet From: Dave Crocker Subject: To be "on" the Internet - Vocabulary choices Folks, Last October and then again in recent weeks, I've raised the question of terminology for labeling who is "on" the Internet. From the October discussion, 3 terms were developed. Recently I suggested adding a fourth and from that we re-defined things into the labels: Full Client Mediated Messaging I was intrigued to see that the recent estimate of Internet population, published as an update by TIC (Quarterman, et cie) uses the same 3 categories we developed last fall, but with 3 different terms: Core Consumer Matrix (The last label is the one he has used for some years, for the global email service.) Separate from debating the last of these 3 terms, I wanted to see how interested folks were in the first two. For myself, I think that "Core" is at least as good as "Full" and may even be catchier. (Catchiness is good; it gets people to use it.) I like "consumer" also, but it does not distinguish between the consumers who run apps on their machines, versus those who are accessing the apps on others, namely 3rd-party service providers such as with shell accounts. Recall that my current feeling is that the service distinction for the user is massive and worthy of different terms. Thoughts? d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Tue Feb 14 05:21:11 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA11834; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 04:00:40 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id EAA01745; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 04:00:23 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id DAA01729; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 03:52:12 +1100 Precedence: list From: little@ctt.bellcore.com Received: from mgm.ctt.bellcore.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA08669; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 02:41:29 +1100 (from little@ctt.bellcore.com) Received: from montana.ctt.bellcore.com by mgm.ctt.bellcore.com with SMTP id AA20048 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:41:16 -0500 Received: from localhost.ctt.bellcore.com by montana.ctt.bellcore.com (4.1/Spike-2.2) id AA08284; Mon, 13 Feb 95 10:41:15 EST Message-Id: <9502131541.AA08284@montana.ctt.bellcore.com> To: Dave Crocker Cc: Big-Internet Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Vocabulary choices In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 12 Feb 95 15:01:56 PST." Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 10:41:14 EST For catchiness, to describe connectivity how about: Core Netted Fringe For belonging to application domains, we are already doing pretty good: Matrix Web Thus, I can tell you that I'm Netted here at work but my home machine is part of the Fringe. However, I'm on the Web and I'm part of the Matrix. I don't worry about Core access, being Netted is good enough. But systems that are part of the Core have all these interesting networking problems to solve.... -Mike From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Tue Feb 14 12:56:28 1995 Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA28023; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:55:41 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA24323 Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:43:11 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id KAA02119; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:40:24 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id KAA02103; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:26:51 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from cu.nih.gov by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA26661; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:26:28 +1100 (from RAF@CU.NIH.GOV) Message-Id: <9502132326.26661@munnari.oz.au> To: dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu, Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 18:24:31 EST Subject: Re: To be 'on' the Internet - Vocabulary choices > Last October and then again in recent weeks, I've raised the > question of terminology for labeling who is "on" the Internet. From the > October discussion, 3 terms were developed. Recently I suggested adding a > fourth and from that we re-defined things into the labels: > > Full > Client > Mediated > Messaging > > I was intrigued to see that the recent estimate of Internet > population, published as an update by TIC (Quarterman, et cie) uses the > same 3 categories we developed last fall, but with 3 different terms: > > Core > Consumer > Matrix > > (The last label is the one he has used for some years, for the global email > service.) > > Separate from debating the last of these 3 terms, I wanted to see > how interested folks were in the first two. For myself, I think that > "Core" is at least as good as "Full" and may even be catchier. (Catchiness > is good; it gets people to use it.) "Full" and "core" seem about equal to me, allthough "full" is more familiar. How about "direct"? > I like "consumer" also, but it does not distinguish between the > consumers who run apps on their machines, versus those who are accessing > the apps on others, namely 3rd-party service providers such as with shell > accounts. Recall that my current feeling is that the service distinction > for the user is massive and worthy of different terms. > > Thoughts? > > d/ I agree that distinguishing between shell and others is useful. I like your four categories. I might suggest "email" or "mail" instead of "messaging." From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Tue Feb 14 21:00:55 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA22720; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 21:00:55 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id VAA02625; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 21:00:30 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id UAA02620; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 20:58:05 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from rodan.UU.NET by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA16609; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 06:06:39 +1100 (from mo@uunet.uu.net) Received: by rodan.UU.NET id QQycye04487; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:03:54 -0500 Message-Id: To: little@ctt.bellcore.com Cc: Dave Crocker , Big-Internet Subject: Re: To be "on" the Internet - Vocabulary choices In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:41:14 EST." <9502131541.AA08284@montana.ctt.bellcore.com> Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:03:54 -0500 From: "Mike O'Dell" I like your taxonomy. short, crisp, and orthogonal. -mo From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Feb 16 05:29:06 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA08170; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 03:41:42 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id DAA04234; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 03:40:55 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id DAA04218; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 03:30:51 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA07741; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 03:30:31 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.24] (arc-tac2-slip2.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.46]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA18067; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:30:22 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:30:26 -0800 To: Lee.Rian@Census.GOV (Lee Rian (TCO)) From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU At 1:07 PM 2/13/95, Lee Rian (TCO wrote: >I'd combine the 1st two categories into "direct connect" or >something like that. I don't see any real difference between >a machine that supplies a service & a machine that a user runs >applications on. Both use TCP/IP to communicate, both have >full internet connectivity & both go thru a router to get to >the internet. Lee, most of the characteristics you cite are do not (necessarily) apply to the Client access category. TCP/IP isn't required, though Internet APPLICATIONS are. Full Internet connectivity is very much NOT typical of the Client mode, since they either go through a firewall or use periodic attachment through dial-up. In particular, Client machines will usually not show up in a "ping" survey of the Internet, whereas those with full/core access will. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Feb 16 06:29:54 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA11753; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:23:11 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id FAA04337; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:20:41 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA04320; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:06:05 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from news.ti.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA10981; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:05:39 +1100 (from w-rolph@ds.mc.ti.com) Received: from ganesh.mc.ti.com ([157.87.4.175]) by gate.ti.com (8.6.9/) with SMTP id MAA12049 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 12:05:26 -0600 Received: by ganesh.mc.ti.com; id AA14483; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 13:05:08 -0500 Message-Id: <9502151805.AA14483@ganesh.mc.ti.com> X-Sender: a722756@ganesh.mc.ti.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 13:01:56 -0500 To: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: w-rolph@ds.mc.ti.com (W. Donald Rolph III) Subject: Re: Who is ON the Internet? X-Mailer: >At 1:07 PM 2/13/95, Lee Rian (TCO wrote: >>I'd combine the 1st two categories into "direct connect" or >>something like that. I don't see any real difference between >>a machine that supplies a service & a machine that a user runs >>applications on. Both use TCP/IP to communicate, both have >>full internet connectivity & both go thru a router to get to >>the internet. > > Lee, most of the characteristics you cite are do not (necessarily) >apply to the Client access category. TCP/IP isn't required, though >Internet APPLICATIONS are. Full Internet connectivity is very much NOT >typical of the Client mode, since they either go through a firewall or use >periodic attachment through dial-up. > > In particular, Client machines will usually not show up in a "ping" >survey of the Internet, whereas those with full/core access will. > >d/ > I think we should also understand machines behind firewalls. Many of these machines have full access to outside internet resources (web, ftp, telnet etc), but are totally invisible to the internet as a whole. In TI there are probably as many as 30,000 machines which have internet access, but which are invisible to the outside world. If these machines were counted in the internet machine totals, I wager the number is far higher than the present 4x10+6 machines oft quoted. Regards. Don Rolph w-rolph@ds.mc.ti.com WD3 MS10-13 (508)-236-1263 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Feb 16 07:41:55 1995 Received: from mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA12519; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:44:47 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50); id AA15027 Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:43:23 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id FAA04380; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:40:41 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA04339; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:20:43 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from Mordor.Stanford.EDU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA07778; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 03:31:20 +1100 (from dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu) Received: from [198.120.32.24] (arc-tac2-slip2.nsi.nasa.gov [198.120.32.46]) by Mordor.Stanford.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA18082; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:31:09 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:31:12 -0800 To: "Roger Fajman" From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: To be 'on' the Internet - Vocabulary choices Cc: Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU At 3:24 PM 2/13/95, Roger Fajman wrote: >I like your four categories. I might suggest "email" or "mail" >instead of "messaging." I used to use the label email, but it was pointed out to me that news is a major, parallel service, so I've been using 'messaging' in order to be more inclusive of the entire 'class' of access. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg Consulting +1 408 246 8253 675 Spruce Dr. fax: +1 408 249 6205 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 dcrocker@mordor.stanford.edu From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Tue Feb 21 06:03:33 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA13063; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 06:03:33 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id GAA10402; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 06:02:29 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA10386; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 05:51:31 +1100 Precedence: list Received: from heifetz.msen.com by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA12719; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 05:51:17 +1100 (from cfctech!shamu.mis.chrysler.com!tsadmin@msen.com) Received: from cfctech.UUCP by heifetz.msen.com with UUCP (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rgcZZ-000ZdoC; Mon, 20 Feb 95 13:11 EST Received: from shamu.mis.chrysler.com by cfctech.cfc.com with smtp (Smail3.1.27.1 #3) id m0rgc1N-00035XC; Mon, 20 Feb 95 12:35 EST Received: by shamu.mis.chrysler.com (Smail3.1.26.7 #3) id m0rgc4q-0000KWC; Mon, 20 Feb 95 12:39 EST Message-Id: Subject: help To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 12:39:14 EST From: Tech SCCS Administrator X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0] help From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Feb 22 01:03:49 1995 Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA20866; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:03:49 +1100 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Return-Path: Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id BAA11383; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:02:48 +1100 Received: from munnari.oz.au by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id AAA11365; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:50:53 +1100 Precedence: list From: k_washburn@integralis.co.uk Received: from integv.integralis.co.uk by munnari.oz.au with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA20485; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:50:31 +1100 (from k_washburn@integralis.co.uk) Received: from ccgate.integralis.co.uk by INTEGV.INTEGRALIS.CO.UK (PMDF V4.3-7 #8244) id <01HNBAJ4ASOW0007QU@INTEGV.INTEGRALIS.CO.UK>; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:47:38 GMT Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Subscribe To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Message-Id: <01HNBAJ4GYJ60007QU@INTEGV.INTEGRALIS.CO.UK> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT subscribe k_washburn@integralis.co.uk