From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Mon Jul 1 21:16:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id LA04751; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:16:42 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id VAA23941; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:15:40 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id UAA23922; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:56:35 +1000 From: listings@property-link.com Received: from proplink1.property-link.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id KA17194; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:56:33 +1000 (from listings@property-link.com) Received: by property-link.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id DAA10670; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:44:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199607011044.DAA10670@property-link.com> To: Real Estate Professional <> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 22:00:00 +0000 Errors-To: errors@property-link.com Precendence: list Subject: Introducing Property-Link Precedence: bulk Hello and welcome to Property-Link(tm). If you are reading this e-mail you are a either a real estate broker, agent, or other real estate professional. What follows is a nothing less than the most revolutionary marketing tool for successful real estate professionals to date. What is Property-Link, and what do we do? Quite simply we offer to our clients the ability to reach a world wide audience of real estate professionals for less than the cost of the paper that traditional marketing plans are written on. How large an audience? Start with a targeted, direct marketing campaign to 300,000 brokers / agents, and you begin to get an understanding of how much Property-Link(tm) can do for you. Property-Link(tm) gives you that competitive advantage by exposing your listing to the largest audience of brokers/agents available to anyone today. Professionals that have the clients that want to buy listing now. Starting tomorrow you will begin to receive listing updates from Property-Link(tm), and our clients. Our clients include brokers, brokerage offices, as well as home builders, and related professionals. Please take a moment to read through these listing updates, and if you have any clients that would have an interest in what is being listed, simply e-mail or call the Property-Link client directly. If you have any questions regarding Property-Link, and the newest marketing tool for successful real estate professionals, please either e-mail sales@property-link.com, or visit our Web-Link(tm) site at www.property-link.com. http://www.property-link.com Thank you, and once again: Welcome to Property-Link! Property-Link(tm) -- Bringing the world to your listing sales@property-link.com (714) 966.1202 -- Mon-Fri, 8 am-5 pm Pacific Time Please note: At Property-Link, we use proprietary search and retrieval techniques to validate our database daily. If however you are not a real estate professional you will have no use of this mailing. If that is the case, and you have received this mailing in error, please accept our deepest apologies. To unsubscribe automatically, please visit our Web site at www.property-link.com, and hit the "register button". Thank you. From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 4 05:22:12 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id TA02152; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:22:12 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id FAA26989; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:21:17 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA26983; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:10:13 +1000 Received: from proplink1.property-link.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id TA00489; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 05:10:10 +1000 (from dwarmington@proplink1.property-link.com) Received: from [192.187.228.44] by property-link.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA15204; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:57:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:57:33 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: 3D@softimage.co.uk, bulldogx-l@io.com, big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU, com-priv@lists.psi.com, folk_music@nysernet.org, snmp@lists.psi.com, chemist@drugtest.com, pem-dev@tis.com, bsdi-users@bsdi.com, vic@INVENTNET.COM, CHRIS.SCHEURWEGHS@nc3a.nato.int, DSOUCY@UNB.CA, fleck@COLORADO.EDU, JDEBRUYN@USA.NET From: dwarming@proplink1.property-link.com (Drew Warmington) Subject: Apology Precedence: bulk To whom it may concern: We at Property-Link(tm) have made an error by not catching approximately 25 Listserv reflectors in a mailing that was sent out to real estate brokers across the United States on Sunday and Monday (June 30 / July 1). Once these sites were hit, a large number of people that were never meant to receive anything from Property-Link(tm) in the first place were inconvenienced with our listing. We have worked very hard for the last eight months to ensure that the only persons that would receive our listing service are licensed real estate brokers, however errors were made. For this we offer our deepest apologies. It was never our intent, nor is it our policy to include anyone besides real estate brokers in any of our correspondence. Therefore please rest assured that your Listserv has been permanently removed from our database. If there are any questions that you may have, please do not hesitate to e-mail us at postmaster@property-link.com. Cordially yours: Property-Link(tm) Drew Warmington VP Sales / Marketing ___________________________________________________________________ Property-Link(tm) Voice:(714)966-1202 Drew Warmington Fax: (714)545-6162 VP Sales / Marketing Property-Link(tm) - Changing the way Real Estate Brokers Communicate ___________________________________________________________________ From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Tue Jul 23 23:52:34 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id NA31654; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 23:52:34 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id XAA20882; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 23:49:04 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id XAA20853; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 23:32:46 +1000 Received: from mwassocs.demon.co.uk by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id NA18545; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 23:32:23 +1000 (from whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:20:35 EDT Message-Id: <9607231320.aa16168@mwassocs.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk From: whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk (Tony Whyman) To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU (Big Internet Maillist) Subject: The Inventor of the Internet? X-Mailer: Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Precedence: bulk Last week, there was a small item on our local television station about an awards ceremony at Southampton University. Tim Berners-Lee (a local lad) was being presented with an honoury doctorate, and the news report described him as the "Inventor of the Internet". My first thoughts were - oh no another cub reporter that doesn't understand the technology he's reporting on. Probably the type that a few years ago would have spelt software like menswear. But hang a minute, that reporter was really just parroting a common view. The Web is now so pervasive that for most people it is in the Internet. And that is only the first achievement of the Web. The demand for bandwidth from multimedia WEB applications is such that the venerable IP Internet (of whatever vintage) must surely have a limited lifetime. I suspect that in not that many years from now, when your average nerd surfs the Web using an ATM or similar cell switched network, they will still call it the Internet, even though IP is no more than a footnote in a technical reference book. Then Mr Berners-Lee will rightly be known as the inventor of the Internet. An interesting thought because perhaps the Web will not only hijack the term "Internet", but will also make the debate between the relative merits of IP, IPv6 and CLNP seem as irrelevant as the debate between the CONS and the CLNS a decade ago. -- Tony Whyman McCallum Whyman Associates Ltd Tel +44 1962 735580 FAX +44 1962 735581 Internet: whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk Compuserve: 100041,315 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 01:09:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id PA23525; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:09:18 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id BAA21056; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:09:04 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id BAA21050; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:01:55 +1000 Received: from nic.hq.cic.net by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id PA27239; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:01:53 +1000 (from dorian@cic.net) Received: from nic.hq.cic.net (nic.hq.cic.net [198.87.19.2]) by nic.hq.cic.net (8.7.5/CICNet) with SMTP id LAA07653; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:00:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dorian R. Kim" Sender: dorian@cic.net To: Tony Whyman Cc: Big Internet Maillist Subject: Re: The Inventor of the Internet? In-Reply-To: <9607231320.aa16168@mwassocs.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Tony Whyman wrote: > And that is only the first achievement of the Web. The demand for bandwidth > from multimedia WEB applications is such that the venerable IP Internet (of > whatever vintage) must surely have a limited lifetime. I suspect that in not Is there some intrinsic limit to how fast IP can go? If so this is news to me. > that many years from now, when your average nerd surfs the Web using an ATM > or similar cell switched network, they will still call it the Internet, even This is not a foregone conclusion, I would think. It's too early to be singing dirges for IP. -dorian From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 02:09:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA08131; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 02:09:17 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id CAA21133; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 02:09:06 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id BAA21127; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:57:03 +1000 Received: from pinky.junction.net by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id PA08576; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 01:57:01 +1000 (from michael@memra.com) Received: from sidhe.memra.com (sidhe.memra.com [199.166.227.105]) by pinky.junction.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA20436 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:07:49 -0700 Received: from localhost (michael@localhost) by sidhe.memra.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA06365 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:52:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 08:52:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Dillon To: Big Internet Maillist Subject: Re: The Inventor of the Internet? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Organization: Memra Software Inc. - Internet consulting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Dorian R. Kim wrote: > This is not a foregone conclusion, I would think. It's too early to be > singing dirges for IP. Encyclopedia Britannica - 2053 edition IP - Internet Protocol - This is the basic protocol underlying all communications networks. The protocol was specifically designed for the comm nets because the 1500 byte packets are a perfect match for the 1500 byte fibre bundles used in the nets. Each byte of a packet travels in parallel through the comm bundles connected to cubeswitch centres. I think IP networking will turn out to be the biggest advance of the human race since double-entry bookkeeping. Michael Dillon - ISP & Internet Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-604-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 02:29:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA17162; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 02:29:17 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id CAA21182; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 02:29:04 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA21164; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 02:11:42 +1000 Received: from freeside.ai.mit.edu by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA10150; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 02:11:40 +1000 (from pjnesser@martigny.ai.mit.edu) Message-Id: <9607231611.10150@munnari.OZ.AU> Received: by martigny.ai.mit.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA04746; Tue, 23 Jul 96 12:11:34 -0400 From: "Philip J. Nesser" Subject: Re: The Inventor of the Internet? To: whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: <9607231320.aa16168@mwassocs.demon.co.uk> from "Tony Whyman" at Jul 23, 96 01:20:35 pm Organization: Nesser & Nesser Consulting Phone: (206)488-6268 Us-Nail: 16015 84th Avenue N.E., Bothell, WA 98011-4451 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1007 Precedence: bulk Tony Whyman supposedly said: > > > And that is only the first achievement of the Web. The demand for bandwidth > from multimedia WEB applications is such that the venerable IP Internet (of > whatever vintage) must surely have a limited lifetime. I suspect that in not > that many years from now, when your average nerd surfs the Web using an ATM > or similar cell switched network, they will still call it the Internet, even > though IP is no more than a footnote in a technical reference book. Then Mr > Berners-Lee will rightly be known as the inventor of the Internet. Just out of curiosity what network level protocol do you plan on running over ATM? The wonder and magic of IP is that it can operate over so many link layers. Even when we have our own OC48 ATM switch in every home we still need a protocol to run over it or all we get is a lot of very fast bits that don't do anything. (maybe we can do nuclear particle physics experiments when we get OC10000 switches :-) ---> Phil From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 04:09:20 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id SA06191; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 04:09:20 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id EAA21284; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 04:09:06 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id DAA21278; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 03:56:13 +1000 Received: from zephyr.isi.edu by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id RA06704; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 03:56:12 +1000 (from braden@ISI.EDU) Received: from can.isi.edu by zephyr.isi.edu (5.65c/5.61+local-23) id ; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:55:55 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 10:56:22 PDT From: braden@isi.edu Posted-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 10:56:22 PDT Message-Id: <9607231756.AA02466@can.isi.edu> Received: by can.isi.edu (4.1/4.0.3-6) id ; Tue, 23 Jul 96 10:56:22 PDT To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU, michael@memra.com Subject: Re: The Inventor of the Internet? Precedence: bulk *> *> *> I think IP networking will turn out to be the biggest advance of the human *> race since double-entry bookkeeping. *> And now we are left to figure out whether that is a good thing, right? Bob Braden *> Michael Dillon - ISP & Internet Consulting *> Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-604-546-3049 *> http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com *> *> From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 04:29:14 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id SA03673; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 04:29:14 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id EAA21338; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 04:29:05 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id EAA21320; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 04:17:51 +1000 Received: from lint.cisco.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id SA08522; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 04:17:48 +1000 (from pferguso@cisco.com) Received: from pferguso-pc.cisco.com (c3robo3.cisco.com [171.68.13.67]) by lint.cisco.com (8.6.10/CISCO.SERVER.1.1) with SMTP id LAA23208; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:18:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199607231818.LAA23208@lint.cisco.com> X-Sender: pferguso@lint.cisco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:17:38 -0400 To: braden@ISI.EDU From: Paul Ferguson Subject: Re: The Inventor of the Internet? Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU, michael@memra.com Precedence: bulk At 10:56 AM 7/23/96 PDT, braden@ISI.EDU wrote: > > *> > *> > *> I think IP networking will turn out to be the biggest advance of the human > *> race since double-entry bookkeeping. > *> > >And now we are left to figure out whether that is a good thing, right? > As long as there are no comparisons to the AMC Pacer, I think we're safe. :-) - paul From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 05:30:21 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id TA14623; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 05:30:21 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id FAA21415; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 05:29:06 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id FAA21400; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 05:24:36 +1000 Received: from pilot.is.chrysler.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id TA21740; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 05:24:26 +1000 (from rgm3@chrysler.com) Received: by pilot.firewall.is.chrysler.com; id PAA06560; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:23:34 -0400 Received: from mhbclpr2-le0.is.chrysler.com(172.29.128.206) by pilot.is.chrysler.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma006553; Tue, 23 Jul 96 15:23:05 -0400 Received: from rgm3 by mhbclpr2-nf0.is.chrysler.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1) id PAA18535; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960723192249.00b4c9f8@pop3hub.is.chrysler.com> X-Sender: t3125rm@pop3hub.is.chrysler.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:22:49 -0400 To: Paul Ferguson , braden@ISI.EDU From: Robert Moskowitz Subject: Re: The Inventor of the Internet? Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU, michael@memra.com Precedence: bulk At 02:17 PM 7/23/96 -0400, Paul Ferguson wrote: >At 10:56 AM 7/23/96 PDT, braden@ISI.EDU wrote: > >> >> *> >> *> >> *> I think IP networking will turn out to be the biggest advance of the human >> *> race since double-entry bookkeeping. >> *> >> >>And now we are left to figure out whether that is a good thing, right? >> > >As long as there are no comparisons to the AMC Pacer, I think we're safe. Hey! That was the greatest greenhouse on wheels ever built! Maybe sometime I'll tell you all about its design (yeah, I started at AMC afterwards, but it was still 'news'). Robert Moskowitz Chrysler Corporation (810) 758-8212 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 07:29:29 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id VA19159; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 07:29:29 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id HAA21539; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 07:29:13 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id HAA21533; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 07:28:04 +1000 Received: from mwassocs.demon.co.uk by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id VA18768; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 07:26:06 +1000 (from whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:23:29 EDT Message-Id: <9607232223.aa16188@mwassocs.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk From: whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk (Tony Whyman) To: pjnesser@martigny.ai.mit.edu Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU (Big Internet Maillist) Subject: re: inventor of the Internet? X-Mailer: Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1 Precedence: bulk Philip J. Nesser wrote: >Just out of curiosity what network level protocol do you plan on running >over ATM? The wonder and magic of IP is that it can operate over so many >link layers. Even when we have our own OC48 ATM switch in every home we >still need a protocol to run over it or all we get is a lot of very fast >bits that don't do anything. (maybe we can do nuclear particle physics >experiments when we get OC10000 switches :-) There is certainly no reason why you cannot run IP over an ATM network and, in the near future that is certainly what I expect to see happen. However, my observation is that the Web will demand ATM to the desktop and, when that happens why do you want the overhead of IP if the underlying network is end to end? IP provides you with primarily addressing and secondarily, fragmentation control. It is necessary if you have hetereogeneous networks interconnected by routers, but is just straight overhead if your network is homogeneous. My vision of the future is that from my desktop I will need a few ATM PVCs to connect me to a Mail Server, a Web Page Cache, etc., and I will set up SVCs for telephony, video conferences and any private large volume data transfers. The only argument for IP is about short lived connections where the cost of setting up an SVC may be questionable and having a network of routers switching packets might still be justified. But I think that that is missing the point of the paradigm shift that the Web has introduced away from a packet switching Internet to a Messaging Internet. It is messages that will flow through the future Internet. Some will be transient, like this EMail message - starting from one point and then hopping around the network until it reaches its destination. Others will be more persistent, like Web Pages and News, starting from one point and then being copied out many times to be cached and then deleted by Web Caches, depending on their popularity. Indeed, it is the Named Message rather than the addressed packet that will be the general currency of the Internet, and the Messaging Centre (Web Server, Mail Hub, call it what you will) that will replace the Router. -- Tony Whyman McCallum Whyman Associates Ltd Tel +44 1962 735580 FAX +44 1962 735581 Internet: whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk Compuserve: 100041,315 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 08:49:29 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id WA22303; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:49:29 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id IAA21626; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:49:09 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id IAA21609; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:39:39 +1000 Received: from linux.silkroad.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id WA07316; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 08:39:31 +1000 (from bass@linux.silkroad.com) Received: (from bass@localhost) by linux.silkroad.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id SAA23591; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:39:25 -0400 From: Tim Bass Message-Id: <199607232239.SAA23591@linux.silkroad.com> Subject: Re: inventor of the Internet? To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:39:25 -0400 (EDT) Cc: bass@linux.silkroad.com In-Reply-To: <9607232223.aa16188@mwassocs.demon.co.uk> from "Tony Whyman" at Jul 23, 96 10:23:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Interesting. Today ATM, yesterday superframe, yesteryear Greek runners delivering messages.... The "Internet" just happens to be in the 'radar screen' of mass media today and to use any term like 'founder of the Internet' just demonstrates how we humans love to create icons and hyperbola and overestimate our own importance in a single snapshot of time. IMO, the inventor of the Internet was Samuel Morse, who demonstrated that information could be transmitted via electrical energy over copper wires and secured $30,000.00 in US Congressional Funding to build the first Washington-Baltimore telegraph project. Of course, a good argument could be made that any number of inventors developed the "Internet". ( What would Glick or Mandlebrot argue, BTW ?) Alas! I will spare the audience a paragraph of metaphors and syllogisms that are polemic to the ATM, WWW, "in the media's radar screen" today sensationalism and avoid a rancid tome of discussion over 'which of the thousands of engineering innovations over modern history contributed to the current state of Internetworking. Maybe some Zen-like expression: "A grain of salt is not the father of the ocean, nor is the wind, nor the rain..." (and I hoped the world would 'be a better place in my recent silence' :-) .... wrong again, as usual. Hopefully, we have better things to discuss on Big-Internet that chicken-or-the-egg circular logic or a barrage of port 25 'male bonding' .... (then again, maybe not ;-) Let the cyber-games begin ! How 'bout ATM/IP? Will humans again believe that today is the end of the line in technical knowhow ? Just like the British believed that the electric telegraph would never replace a system of towers and signal flags ( the first 'optical network' !!) Continued Rambling ....... The real inventor of the Internet is a Frenchman who demonstrated encoding techniques using a series of optical towers and flags in the year 1791 using cross-arms and pulleys. Remembering that in the year 1800 "Optical Telegraph Networks" operated at about 20 chars/second. Then in 1845 (Oct) Morse Magnetic Telegraph Company profits were $413.00 and Postmaster General, Cave Johnson declares in annual report " ... telegraph business will never be profitable ..." ---------------- Cave Johnson had an opinion, just like all the other we read on the network today :-) Regards, Tim -- We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year, Running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears. Wish you were here. -Roger Waters From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 09:49:37 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id XA07399; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:49:37 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id JAA21703; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:49:11 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id JAA21686; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:34:28 +1000 Received: from thumper-13.bellcore.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id XA05871; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:34:26 +1000 (from gja@thumper.bellcore.com) Received: from thumper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thumper.bellcore.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id TAA28014; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:34:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199607232334.TAA28014@thumper.bellcore.com> To: Tim Bass Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU, gja@thumper.bellcore.com Subject: Re: inventor of the Internet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:39:25 -0400. <199607232239.SAA23591@linux.silkroad.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:34:15 -0400 From: Grenville Armitage Precedence: bulk Tim writes, in part: >>How 'bout ATM/IP? Been there, done that, ran IP over it ;-) gja From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 10:30:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id AA09349; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:30:01 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id KAA21799; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:29:12 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id KAA21760; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:25:22 +1000 Received: from ng.netgate.net by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id AA25639; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:25:14 +1000 (from dcrocker@brandenburg.com) Received: from [205.214.160.108] (d22.netgate.net [205.214.160.54]) by ng.netgate.net (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA04475; Tue, 23 Jul 1996 17:31:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: dcrocker@ng.netgate.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9607232223.aa16188@mwassocs.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 17:21:02 -0700 To: whyman@mwassocs.demon.co.uk From: Dave Crocker Subject: re: inventor of the Internet? Cc: pjnesser@martigny.ai.mit.edu, big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU (Big Internet Maillist) Precedence: bulk At 7:23 PM -0700 7/23/96, Tony Whyman wrote: >There is certainly no reason why you cannot run IP over an ATM network and, >in the near future that is certainly what I expect to see happen. However, my >observation is that the Web will demand ATM to the desktop and, when that >happens why do you want the overhead of IP if the underlying network is end >to end? IP provides you with primarily addressing and secondarily, Everything old is new again: "The overhead of IP" Tony, In case no one has noticed, most transaction-related exchanges are just too darned short to be able to tolerate the connection setup time of ATM. In case no one has noticed, IP is proving astongishingly good at providing real-time application use, in spite of having literally NO facilities designed for it. One can only wonder what will happen when flow support is explicit. In case no one has noticed, ATM is proving to be nothing more than a method of flexibly partioning fixed bandwidth. (flexibly? fixed? What I mean is that re-allocated is pretty easy, but that it IS an allocation model rather than being fully dynamic to the level of cell-time, as originally promised.) The alarm clock has gone off. The roses are wilting. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker +1 408 246 8253 Brandenburg Consulting fax: +1 408 249 6205 675 Spruce Dr. dcrocker@brandenburg.com Sunnyvale CA 94086 USA http://www.brandenburg.com Internet Mail Consortium http://www.imc.org, info@imc.org From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Wed Jul 24 19:30:09 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id JA18069; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:30:09 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id TAA22343; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:29:24 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id TAA22326; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:18:00 +1000 Received: from csunb0.leeds.ac.uk by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id JA05525; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 19:17:56 +1000 (from jj@scs.leeds.ac.uk) Received: from csparc23.scs.leeds.ac.uk (csparc23.leeds.ac.uk [129.11.144.63]) by csunb0.leeds.ac.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA11745; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:12:58 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:12:57 +0100 (BST) From: Jim Jackson X-Sender: jj@csparc23 To: Tony Whyman Cc: pjnesser@martigny.ai.mit.edu, Big Internet Maillist Subject: re: inventor of the Internet? In-Reply-To: <9607232223.aa16188@mwassocs.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Why do I sigh when I here this ubiquitous ATM stuff being spouted? 4 years ago when we started out on ATM here, all sorts of people assured us that they too saw the future as this and that they envisaged Workstations with ATM as standard within 5 years. Watch out for the flood of workstations with 100BaseT as standard - no sign of ATM as standard anywhere :-) [As an aside look at the relative endstation costs, both of the hardware and the software support !!!!!!] People were writing off 100M ethernet 4 years ago as a niche technology. 10BaseX ethernet switching was expensive - it is now approaching commodity status with the attendant huge drops in costs. 1000BaseT is being persued - and other technologies are being worked on. One Technology - No chance, stop dreaming. We will ALWAYS have a mixed network - hence ALWAYS need the likes of IP etc. Jim Jackson Project Leader Leeds ATM LAN Pilot On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Tony Whyman wrote: > > My vision of the future is that from my desktop I will need a few ATM PVCs to > connect me to a Mail Server, a Web Page Cache, etc., and I will set up SVCs > for telephony, video conferences and any private large volume data transfers. > The only argument for IP is about short lived connections where the cost of > setting up an SVC may be questionable and having a network of routers > switching packets might still be justified. But I think that that is missing > the point of the paradigm shift that the Web has introduced away from a > packet switching Internet to a Messaging Internet. From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 02:10:08 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA26261; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:10:08 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id CAA22757; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:09:25 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA22751; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:04:49 +1000 Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA26547; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:04:47 +1000 (from Z.Wang@cs.ucl.ac.uk) Received: from stanley.cs.ucl.ac.uk by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 17:04:22 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: Zheng Wang X-Url: http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/Z.Wang/ Subject: The Founder of the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 17:04:22 +0100 Message-Id: <13822.838224262@cs.ucl.ac.uk> Sender: Z.Wang@cs.ucl.ac.uk Precedence: bulk In the article "Boost for Internet Telephony" in the July 15 issue of CommunicationsWeek International, Vinton Cerf was referred as the "co-founder of the Internet". Cheers Zheng From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 02:29:35 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA04149; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:29:35 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id CAA22811; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:29:25 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA22791; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:21:08 +1000 Received: from foo-5-10.Ipsilon.COM by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA06603; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:21:00 +1000 (from hinden@ipsilon.com) Received: from [205.226.1.20] (acacia.Ipsilon.COM [205.226.1.20]) by mailhost.Ipsilon.COM (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA05420 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:20:57 -0700 X-Sender: hinden@mailhost.ipsilon.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <9607232223.aa16188@mwassocs.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 09:23:05 -0700 To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: Bob Hinden Subject: re: inventor of the Internet? Precedence: bulk Sorry to disrupt this very serious discussion, but from reading the popular press, I would have thought that Bill Gates was the inventor of the Internet! At least the ISOC magazine will not give him the title of the "sexiest man....." :-) Bob From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 03:09:33 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id RA16075; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:09:33 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id DAA22866; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:09:24 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA22857; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:58:42 +1000 Received: from copilot.is.chrysler.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA31960; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:58:30 +1000 (from rgm3@chrysler.com) Received: by pilotx.firewall.is.chrysler.com; id MAA11109; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:58:23 -0400 Received: from mhbclpr2-le0.is.chrysler.com(172.29.128.206) by pilotx.is.chrysler.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma011100; Wed, 24 Jul 96 12:58:17 -0400 Received: from rgm3 by mhbclpr2-nf0.is.chrysler.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1) id MAA05886; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960724165750.009add04@pop3hub.is.chrysler.com> X-Sender: t3125rm@pop3hub.is.chrysler.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:57:50 -0400 To: Zheng Wang , big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: Robert Moskowitz Subject: Re: The Founder of the Internet Precedence: bulk At 05:04 PM 7/24/96 +0100, Zheng Wang wrote: >In the article "Boost for Internet Telephony" in the July 15 issue of >CommunicationsWeek International, Vinton Cerf was referred as the >"co-founder of the Internet". > After all, Vint is just the "father of the Internet". Who is the mother? ;) Boy are we busy digging holes this summer! Robert Moskowitz Chrysler Corporation (810) 758-8212 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 03:11:29 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id RA05623; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:11:29 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id DAA22897; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:11:18 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA22859; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:58:42 +1000 Received: from copilot.is.chrysler.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA04493; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 02:58:32 +1000 (from rgm3@chrysler.com) Received: by pilotx.firewall.is.chrysler.com; id MAA11110; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:58:23 -0400 Received: from mhbclpr2-le0.is.chrysler.com(172.29.128.206) by pilotx.is.chrysler.com via smap (g3.0.1) id sma011101; Wed, 24 Jul 96 12:58:18 -0400 Received: from rgm3 by mhbclpr2-nf0.is.chrysler.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1) id MAA05888; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960724165751.00b4612c@pop3hub.is.chrysler.com> X-Sender: t3125rm@pop3hub.is.chrysler.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:57:51 -0400 To: Bob Hinden , big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: Robert Moskowitz Subject: re: inventor of the Internet? Precedence: bulk At 09:23 AM 7/24/96 -0700, Bob Hinden wrote: >Sorry to disrupt this very serious discussion, but from reading the popular >press, I would have thought that > > Bill Gates > >was the inventor of the Internet! At least the ISOC magazine will not give >him the title of the "sexiest man....." :-) > Nah, Bill is the inventor of the Intranet. To get the proper perspective on the distinction, re-read Stef's old Paradigm column from Connexions back in '87. OH, and Bill doesn't have to be sexy. He is too rich for that. Robert Moskowitz Chrysler Corporation (810) 758-8212 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 03:29:33 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id RA16390; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:29:33 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id DAA22942; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:29:25 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id DAA22936; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:25:34 +1000 Received: from burnout.cts.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id RA09830; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:25:32 +1000 (from kwe@6SigmaNets.com) Received: from netguru.cts.com (kent-england.pbi.net [206.13.1.58]) by burnout.cts.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA08937; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:25:20 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960724172948.0074e360@mail.cts.com> X-Sender: kwe@mail.cts.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:29:48 -0700 To: Zheng Wang , big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: "Kent W. England" Subject: Re: The Founder of the Internet Precedence: bulk At 05:04 PM 7/24/96 +0100, Zheng Wang wrote: >In the article "Boost for Internet Telephony" in the July 15 issue of >CommunicationsWeek International, Vinton Cerf was referred as the >"co-founder of the Internet". > >Cheers >Zheng > > > Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn deserve credit for the key idea behind the Internet, which is that a virtual internet (or catenet as it was first called) can stitch together many disparate network technologies and the resulting whole will be greater than the sum of its parts. (ATM bigots need to remember this last point.) The success of the Internet (as opposed to the Web) is almost entirely due to this concatenation principle, something entirely missing from any network technology up to that time. Tim Berners-Lee deserves credit for taking the abstract concept of hypertext and turning it into a practical reality. (Ted Nelson was never happy with the compromises that Tim Berners-Lee happily accepted.) The Web made the Internet "point and click" which was already a successful model for personal computing. The success of the Web is almost entirely due to this very simple and practical model. I think Marc Andreeson deserves a lot of credit for the GUI web browser and the concept of giving away well done code. And I don't forget Bob Metcalfe's contribution of Ethernet. Treating a wire like wireless technology was counter-intuitive, brilliant and successful. Truly "plug and play". There is plenty of credit to go around appropriately. Maybe we need an Internet Hall of Fame to get this all straight? --Kent From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 08:49:50 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id WA00618; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:49:50 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id IAA23224; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:49:28 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id IAA23218; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:45:24 +1000 Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id WA13789; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:45:24 +1000 (from ggm@connect.com.au) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id IAA15079 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6 for ); Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:45:12 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: broon.off.connect.com.au: ggm owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: The Founder of the Internet In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:29:48 MST." <2.2.32.19960724172948.0074e360@mail.cts.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:45:12 +1000 Message-Id: <15078.838248312@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Precedence: bulk There is plenty of credit to go around appropriately. Maybe we need an Internet Hall of Fame to get this all straight? If we're going to have a hall of fame, get Bob Dylan to play at the opening and give Robert Zimmerman a special award for inventing the 7 layer model. Then find the people who converted a teaching/comparison tool into religious mania and line them up against the wall... [this is a joke. If you don't know why, then you don't get invited.] -George -- George Michaelson | connect.com.au pty/ltd Email: ggm@connect.com.au | c/o AAPT, Phone: +61 7 3834 9976 | level 8, the Riverside Centre, Fax: +61 7 3834 9908 | 123 Eagle St, Brisbane QLD 4000 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 10:10:00 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id AA16077; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:10:00 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id KAA23349; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:09:30 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id JAA23331; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:51:13 +1000 Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id XA14383; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:51:12 +1000 (from ggm@connect.com.au) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id JAA15644 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6 for ); Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:51:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: broon.off.connect.com.au: ggm owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:51:09 +1000 Message-Id: <15643.838252269@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Precedence: bulk Well here we are, Australia is taking a massive pounding and collecting enough bronze to start a cannon foundry and I don't see any massive change in my RTT/drop. Since Poland and Turkey now outrank OZ in the medal stakes, maybe all the traffic is coming from Europe, but I'd have expected melt-down to be visible all over (not) So what happened to the "Olympics gonna kill the net" claim? do we now see some kind of retraction? Maybe its all part of the grand conspiracy: lull us into a false sense of security and then BAM! the weathermen are going to click on the URL all at once, while the Chinese simultaneously leap into the water and cause a tidal wave to swamp FIX-WEST... This prediction never made much sense to me anyway. Maybe the man was mis-quoted. -George -- George Michaelson | connect.com.au pty/ltd Email: ggm@connect.com.au | c/o AAPT, Phone: +61 7 3834 9976 | level 8, the Riverside Centre, Fax: +61 7 3834 9908 | 123 Eagle St, Brisbane QLD 4000 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 11:50:21 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id BA09337; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:50:21 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id LAA23484; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:49:32 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id LAA23475; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:41:15 +1000 Received: from pinky.junction.net by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id BA30307; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:41:06 +1000 (from michael@memra.com) Received: from sidhe.memra.com (sidhe.memra.com [199.166.227.105]) by pinky.junction.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA11484; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 17:51:48 -0700 Received: from localhost (michael@localhost) by sidhe.memra.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA22764; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:36:30 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:36:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Dillon To: George Michaelson Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction In-Reply-To: <15643.838252269@connect.com.au> Message-Id: Organization: Memra Software Inc. - Internet consulting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, George Michaelson wrote: > This prediction never made much sense to me anyway. Maybe the man was > mis-quoted. decide for yourself. Go to http://www.infoworld.com/testing/96/data.htm select any one of the past 12 issues or so, click on the OPINION button and the the FROM THE ETHER column to read what he actually said. He didn't cover the imminent collapse of the net in every column but there are quite a few of them there. Michael Dillon - ISP & Internet Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-604-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 11:53:31 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id BA31374; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:53:31 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id LAA23506; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:53:02 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id LAA23478; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:43:26 +1000 Received: from linux.silkroad.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id BA06251; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:43:07 +1000 (from bass@linux.silkroad.com) Received: (from bass@localhost) by linux.silkroad.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id VAA25315; Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:42:41 -0400 From: Tim Bass Message-Id: <199607250142.VAA25315@linux.silkroad.com> Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction To: ggm@connect.com.au (George Michaelson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: <15643.838252269@connect.com.au> from "George Michaelson" at Jul 25, 96 09:51:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk George, Nice observation. .... > This prediction never made much sense to me anyway. Maybe the man was > mis-quoted. Has anyone ever noticed how the Internet is no different than any other human endeavor. Remember those who justified irrational actions in the IETF, NANOG, or other organizations predicting "the sky is falling" the "network will crash and burn if we don't do this or that"? We have heard so much BS over the past fews years with regard to the Internet; that many of the BSers would have intelligent people believe that fundemental sound engineering practices are taboo in the Internet World Order, just like democracy has fallen to oligarchy in the name of "doing the right thing". Who cares what Metcalfe says? Who, of intelligence and wisdom, really cares who was in the right place at the right time with regard to hypertext, especially considering the research was funded by taxpayers, just like TCP/IP. Hence, maybe it is hard to swallow, but the real heros and parents of the modern TCP/IP network are the millions of US taxpayers that contribute up to 35% of their annual pay to Uncle Sam. Regardless of how sext Mr. Cerf looks on the ISOC magazine <:+, or how much the media promotes heros in the name of profit; their is an underlying reality in the world..... Sorry for the US centric view, but based on my understanding of history, without hard working average citizens from the farmlands of Kansas, to the automobile factories of Michigan, to the service worker in NY City, and all across this innovative land; the blood, sweat, and tears of the average worker has driven, funded, and built the Internet. To choose a few, and suggest a "Internet Hall of Fame" is just another "brick in the wall", another WWW site to count the number of hits, another possibility of another "Top 5%" site, etc. ad nauseum. Then again, this 'sell out the common man' for heros and hyperbola sound bite, iconographic, 'feel good today' social consciousness has infected so much of the majority of our society, finding people who can truly think rationally and independently is a rare quality. Anyone got the schedule on the next flight to Mars? I wonder if galaxies far far away getting our radio signals and listening in are just rolling over laughing at our ignorant and shameless planet Earth. Lamenting Again, (sorry 'bout that) Internet Heros, Gods, Fame, what will we think of next? My Link is Bigger Than Your Link....... Sigh. Tim ------------------------------ We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year, Running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears. Wish you were here. -Roger Waters From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Thu Jul 25 16:10:20 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id GA24410; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:10:20 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id QAA23743; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:09:37 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id PAA23737; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:57:20 +1000 Received: from portia.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id FA01632; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:57:16 +1000 (from marnellm@portia.portia.com) Received: from portia.portia.com (localhost.portia.com [127.0.0.1]) by portia.portia.com (8.7.4/8.7.4(portia)) with ESMTP id BAA03139; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199607250556.BAA03139@portia.portia.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/8/95 To: George Michaelson Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:51:09 +1000." <15643.838252269@connect.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 01:56:36 -0400 From: Matthew James Marnell Precedence: bulk :>Well here we are, Australia is taking a massive pounding and collecting :>enough bronze to start a cannon foundry and I don't see any massive change :>in my RTT/drop. Since Poland and Turkey now outrank OZ in the medal stakes, :>maybe all the traffic is coming from Europe, but I'd have expected melt-down :>to be visible all over (not) :> :>So what happened to the "Olympics gonna kill the net" claim? do we now :>see some kind of retraction? I don't know. I've been trying to get through to the www.atlanta.olympic.org that IBM has been advertising in their Spinal Tap commercials. While I can connect fine 50% of the time, the sales.atlanta.olympic.org machine seems to keep falling over (So badly, that even though the one page I was accessing said that there were still tickets available to certain events, but after 50 timeout, connection refused's, and incomplete pages, or otherwise eroneous pages, when I finally got to the order page, the tickets were already gone (when I finally called the number (which took me 15 minutes to find with the crappy responses I got from their servers)). All in all, either the connection was bad or the servers are undertuned. Either way, the net seems to be performing better than it was as little as 2 weeks ago. Matt From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 00:50:17 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id OA30226; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:50:17 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id AAA24312; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:49:46 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id AAA24304; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:41:32 +1000 Received: from poseidon.crosslink.net by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id OA07149; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:41:26 +1000 (from shields@crosslink.net) Received: from [205.198.168.35] (nemesis.crosslink.net [205.198.168.35]) by poseidon.crosslink.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA14635; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:40:54 -0400 X-Sender: shields@shields.pop.crosslink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199607250556.BAA03139@portia.portia.com> References: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:51:09 +1000." <15643.838252269@connect.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:38:22 +0000 To: Matthew James Marnell From: Michael Shields Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction Cc: George Michaelson , big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Precedence: bulk At 1996-07-25 05:56 +0000, Matthew James Marnell wrote: >:>So what happened to the "Olympics gonna kill the net" claim? do we now >:>see some kind of retraction? > >I don't know. I've been trying to get through to the >www.atlanta.olympic.org that IBM has been advertising in their >Spinal Tap commercials. While I can connect fine 50% of the >time, the sales.atlanta.olympic.org machine seems to keep falling >over (So badly, that even though the one page I was accessing >said that there were still tickets available to certain events, >but after 50 timeout, connection refused's, and incomplete pages, >or otherwise eroneous pages, when I finally got to the order page, >the tickets were already gone (when I finally called the number >(which took me 15 minutes to find with the crappy responses I >got from their servers)). All in all, either the connection was >bad or the servers are undertuned. Either way, the net seems to >be performing better than it was as little as 2 weeks ago. From press coverage (today's Washington Post, for example), it looks like this is poor tuning by IBM rather than collapse of the Internet. They've apparently had problems even with the kiosks in the Olympic Village, and it would be hard to pin those on failures in any network other than maybe Advantis. altanta.olympic.org may be down, but it's not pulling backbones down with it. -- Shields, CrossLink. From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 01:09:54 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id PA23213; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:09:54 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id BAA24352; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 01:09:45 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id AAA24318; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:50:58 +1000 Received: from eunet.EU.net by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id OA01587; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 00:50:54 +1000 (from bilse@EU.net) Received: from jotun.EU.net (jotun.EU.net [193.242.90.24]) by eunet.EU.net (8.7.4/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA19240 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:50:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by jotun.EU.net id AA14249 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for big-internet@munnari.oz.au); Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:50:42 +0200 Message-Id: <199607251450.AA14249@jotun.EU.net> From: Per Gregers Bilse Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:50:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: <15643.838252269@connect.com.au> Organization: EUnet Communications Services BV X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.2 4/12/91) To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction Precedence: bulk On Jul 25, 9:51, George Michaelson wrote: > This prediction never made much sense to me anyway. Maybe the man was > mis-quoted. No, don't forget Dr. Metcalfe's definition of a collapse: "... when more than 50,000 people are denied their Internet access for more than an hour, let's call it an Internet collapse, ...". By that definition the Internet has died when 100k people get no response from IBM's WWW servers. -- ------ ___ --- Per G. Bilse, Mgr Network Operations Ctr ----- / / / __ ___ _/_ ---- EUnet Communications Services B.V. ---- /--- / / / / /__/ / ----- Singel 540, 1017 AZ Amsterdam, NL --- /___ /__/ / / /__ / ------ tel: +31 20 5305333, fax: +31 20 6224657 --- ------- 24hr emergency number: +31 20 421 0865 --- Connecting Europe since 1982 --- http://www.EU.net e-mail: bilse@EU.net From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 02:10:28 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA02726; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:10:28 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id CAA24429; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:09:46 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA24423; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:01:03 +1000 Received: from linux.silkroad.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA16645; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:00:57 +1000 (from bass@linux.silkroad.com) Received: (from bass@localhost) by linux.silkroad.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id MAA26331; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:00:49 -0400 From: Tim Bass Message-Id: <199607251600.MAA26331@linux.silkroad.com> Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction To: bilse@EU.net (Per Gregers Bilse) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: <199607251450.AA14249@jotun.EU.net> from "Per Gregers Bilse" at Jul 25, 96 04:50:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk PGB replies: > No, don't forget Dr. Metcalfe's definition of a collapse: "... when > more than 50,000 people are denied their Internet access for more > than an hour, let's call it an Internet collapse, ...". By that > definition the Internet has died when 100k people get no response > from IBM's WWW servers. The same standard could also be applies to voice calls and busy signal or 'all circuits are busy' messages (which I get during discount times to Germany daily calling my family); but this is not the 'collapse of the PSTN' ! :-) Let's don't worry about "what Dr. Metcalfe" says, how-bout-it? and think what is pragmatic and useful. One of the interesting situations of a 'technocratic paradigm' is the perception that one who is advance in one aspect of a very broad field (such as Ethernet and Internetworking) is an expert on all expects of the entire field; which is humanly impossible. This is precisely why there are "System Engineers" , "Software Engineering", "Hardware Engineers" and subspecialists in every one of these areas. I find it amusing that we need Dr. Metcalfe to formula opinions of the future of IP internetworking based on his substantial and significant contributions to IEEE 802. This is not to take away from the important contribution of Dr. Metcalfe; but one grain of sand does not make a beach, nor a grain of salt make an ocean... Certainly a noted contribution to the engineering field with regard to networking does not make an omnipotent oracle for internetworking.... just like doing BGP4 on a daily basis does not make one the 'expert of all IP routing paradigms' (contrary to popular perception). Regards and ^Z, Tim -- We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year, Running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears. Wish you were here. -Roger Waters From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 02:49:59 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA11176; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:49:59 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id CAA24503; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:49:47 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA24494; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:45:04 +1000 Received: from ginger.lcs.mit.edu by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA10699; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:45:00 +1000 (from jnc@ginger.lcs.mit.edu) Received: by ginger.lcs.mit.edu id AA07633; Thu, 25 Jul 96 12:44:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 12:44:17 -0400 From: jnc@ginger.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Message-Id: <9607251644.AA07633@ginger.lcs.mit.edu> To: bass@linux.silkroad.com, bilse@eu.net Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU, jnc@ginger.lcs.mit.edu Precedence: bulk From: Tim Bass Let's don't worry about "what Dr. Metcalfe" says, how-bout-it? and think what is pragmatic and useful. Too bad you didn't take you own advice and focus on the issue at hand, and not attacking other peoples' technical abilities. I find it amusing that we need Dr. Metcalfe to formula opinions of the future of IP internetworking based on his substantial and significant contributions to IEEE 802. This is not to take away from the important contribution of Dr. Metcalfe ... Certainly a noted contribution to the engineering field with regard to networking does not make an omnipotent oracle for internetworking.... I'm puzzled about how to reconcile your assertions with the facts that i) Bob Metcalfe was one of the chief designers of Xerox's PUP, which was the first operational internetworking protocol, and thus has some useful experience in this field, and ii) based on his work there, was involved in the early work on what became TCP and IP (since at that point, they were not separate protocols). Sure, I don't exactly bow down in his direction three times daily, but he's not totally ignorant. Now, can we stick to the issue at hand, please, and enough dumping on people (lest the list of targets of similar behaviour get expanded, eh?) Noel From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 03:30:01 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id RA16902; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:30:01 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id DAA24566; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:29:47 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id DAA24549; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:11:11 +1000 Received: from linux.silkroad.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id RA17372; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:11:05 +1000 (from bass@linux.silkroad.com) Received: (from bass@localhost) by linux.silkroad.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id NAA26493; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:10:51 -0400 From: Tim Bass Message-Id: <199607251710.NAA26493@linux.silkroad.com> Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction To: jnc@ginger.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:10:51 -0400 (EDT) Cc: bilse@eu.net, big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU, jnc@ginger.lcs.mit.edu In-Reply-To: <9607251644.AA07633@ginger.lcs.mit.edu> from "Noel Chiappa" at Jul 25, 96 12:44:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk > > Now, can we stick to the issue at hand, please, and enough dumping on people > (lest the list of targets of similar behaviour get expanded, eh?) > Noel, Hi! I simple am stating the 'creation of icons and superheros is completely base and a waste of time, IMO'.... others are certainly welcome to create superheros and legends as they find appropriate, but true heros need no such activity. If we examine both scientific and academic history, Noel, as you surely have; we find that most people who are well known were self-promoting egoists ( read the critiques of Mandlebrot, Newton, etc. to infinity ). I am not saying that anyone in the IP world is that way :-) :-) :-) however.... ( if you do not put words in my mouth as you often do ;-) ... I am saying is that the success of the Internet is not based on a collection of singularities but on the double integral of the collective will and efforts of countless thousand of people; including the non-college graduates sitting at NOCs handling customer calls every day, citizens funding NSF and DARPA initiatives, experimentalists playing with protocols and paradigms, as well a design engineers and theorists, not to mention the end users need for information exchange. Anyone is welcome to find fault in this logic. But this is not a 'new world view' on my part, and if I remember correctly, the original thread was something about 'an Internet Hall of Fame'. There is an old saying: " it is amazing the amount of progess that can occur when no one worries about getting credit for it " As I see it, the Internet is sinking to a new 'low' as there is now a need to iconify individuals.... mostly with a commercial end goal, or to give the press and media something to feed to their consumers. How, Noel my dear friend, I ask you: "What is the issue at hand, in your opinion?" Do you want to create icons out of individuals and "Halls of Fames" as suggested? Would you feel good to see you name in lights as well? If so, then my all means, don't let my worldview stop the 'wheels of human progress' (whatever that is, today). Best Regards, Tim > Noel -- We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year, Running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears. Wish you were here. -Roger Waters From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 03:49:56 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id RA18490; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:49:56 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id DAA24603; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:49:47 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id DAA24597; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:42:56 +1000 Received: from ng.netgate.net by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id RA08582; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:42:54 +1000 (from dcrocker@brandenburg.com) Received: from [205.214.160.102] (d17.netgate.net [205.214.160.49]) by ng.netgate.net (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA23757; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: dcrocker@ng.netgate.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199607251450.AA14249@jotun.EU.net> References: <15643.838252269@connect.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:41:26 -0700 To: Per Gregers Bilse From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Precedence: bulk At 7:50 AM -0700 7/25/96, Per Gregers Bilse wrote: >No, don't forget Dr. Metcalfe's definition of a collapse: "... when >more than 50,000 people are denied their Internet access for more >than an hour, let's call it an Internet collapse, ...". By that >definition the Internet has died when 100k people get no response >from IBM's WWW servers. That, of course, is the problem with overly simplistic definitions. In this case it feeds a verious serious failure to distinguish between "failures of the net" and "failures of the information providers". Bob has been on a long-term campaign to raise people's awareness of the limitations to the current system. The issue is a valid one. Bob's style has been very consistent and always of the chicken-little variety. That, I'm afraid, is highly counter-productive. Good message. Bad tone. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker +1 408 246 8253 Brandenburg Consulting fax: +1 408 249 6205 675 Spruce Dr. dcrocker@brandenburg.com Sunnyvale CA 94086 USA http://www.brandenburg.com Internet Mail Consortium http://www.imc.org, info@imc.org From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 07:30:08 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id VA19233; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:30:08 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id HAA24838; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:29:52 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id HAA24832; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:29:01 +1000 Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id VA07958; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:29:00 +1000 (from ggm@connect.com.au) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id HAA25153 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6); Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:28:53 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: broon.off.connect.com.au: ggm owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: Dave Crocker Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:41:26 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:28:52 +1000 Message-Id: <25152.838330132@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Precedence: bulk Bob has been on a long-term campaign to raise people's awareness of the limitations to the current system. The issue is a valid one. Bob's style has been very consistent and always of the chicken-little variety. That, I'm afraid, is highly counter-productive. Right. Now if he'd said "excessive use of real-time dataflows is going to kill the internet unless we change things to match demand" I wouldn't have been so cynical. Of course, its not quotable either. Personally, I liked it better when it was ttys and text. I'm pretty happy with newspapers and radio for my slice of Olympic failures of the day. On to real topics... -George -- George Michaelson | connect.com.au pty/ltd Email: ggm@connect.com.au | c/o AAPT, Phone: +61 7 3834 9976 | level 8, the Riverside Centre, Fax: +61 7 3834 9908 | 123 Eagle St, Brisbane QLD 4000 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 07:50:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id VA32169; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:50:07 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id HAA24876; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:49:51 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id HAA24844; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:30:10 +1000 Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id VA03918; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:30:09 +1000 (from ggm@connect.com.au) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id HAA25171 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6 for ); Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:30:07 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: broon.off.connect.com.au: ggm owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: The Founder of the Internet In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jul 1996 08:45:12 +1000." <15078.838248312@connect.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:30:07 +1000 Message-Id: <25170.838330207@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Precedence: bulk If we're going to have a hall of fame, get Bob Dylan to play at the opening and give Robert Zimmerman a special award for inventing the 7 layer model. Then find the people who converted a teaching/comparison tool into religious mania and line them up against the wall... [this is a joke. If you don't know why, then you don't get invited.] And as Christian Huitema kindly pointed out in Private, the man is Hubert and not Robert so as usual, the jokes on me. Two letter slip onto a bananaskin. Sorry... -George -- George Michaelson | connect.com.au pty/ltd Email: ggm@connect.com.au | c/o AAPT, Phone: +61 7 3834 9976 | level 8, the Riverside Centre, Fax: +61 7 3834 9908 | 123 Eagle St, Brisbane QLD 4000 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 09:30:23 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id XA23253; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:30:23 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id JAA24990; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:29:54 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id JAA24984; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:28:49 +1000 Received: from burnout.cts.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id XA17552; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:28:40 +1000 (from kwe@6SigmaNets.com) Received: from netguru.cts.com (ppp-122-148.sndg02.pacbell.net [206.170.122.148]) by burnout.cts.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA08767; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:27:53 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960725233454.0073d594@mail.cts.com> X-Sender: kwe@mail.cts.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:34:54 -0700 To: Per Gregers Bilse , big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU From: "Kent W. England" Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction Precedence: bulk At 04:50 PM 7/25/96 +0200, Per Gregers Bilse wrote: > >No, don't forget Dr. Metcalfe's definition of a collapse: "... when >more than 50,000 people are denied their Internet access for more >than an hour, let's call it an Internet collapse, ...". By that >definition the Internet has died when 100k people get no response >from IBM's WWW servers. > I liked Jack Ricard's response to Metcalfe's imminent demise prediction in his Boardwatch editorial in the April 96 issue. "InfoWorld columnist Bob Metcalfe notes it [the Internet] is going to crash and burn this year anyway, after the fashion of the Hindenberg. Having survived the 327 deaths of FidoNet, I don't doubt it. I just don't think anyone will be able to tell without test instruments." I love his irony. It's a shame that Jack doesn't get the press play that Bob Metcalfe does, because Rickard has been pretty quick to understand the Internet. You should read his monthly editorials, especially the May 96 issue where he discusses bandwidth versus capacity. Have a look at < http://www.boardwatch.com/mag/96/may/bwm1.htm > to read the bandwidth editorial. You may need to register at the Boardwatch site first. He's worth a read. --Kent From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 10:30:38 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id AA10299; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:30:38 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id KAA25068; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:29:55 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id KAA25048; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:15:38 +1000 Received: from roam.psg.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id AA16853; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:15:14 +1000 (from randy@psg.com) Received: by roam.psg.com id m0ujaYZ-0004zqC; Thu, 25 Jul 96 17:15 PDT (Smail3.1.29.1#1) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 17:15 PDT From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) To: "Kent W. England" Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction References: <2.2.32.19960725233454.0073d594@mail.cts.com> Precedence: bulk Jack Ricard's response to Metcalfe's imminent demise prediction: > Having survived the 327 deaths of FidoNet, I don't doubt it. I just don't > think anyone will be able to tell without test instruments." There is an interesting analog between the folk trying to set up 'fake' root name servers and the FidoNet schismic nodelists. Unless the masses believe in your namespace, it is vaccuous. randy From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 10:41:45 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id AA23308; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:41:45 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id KAA25099; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:41:24 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id KAA25062; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:28:31 +1000 Received: from pinky.junction.net by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id AA12577; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:28:24 +1000 (from michael@memra.com) Received: from sidhe.memra.com (sidhe.memra.com [199.166.227.105]) by pinky.junction.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA27509 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:39:09 -0700 Received: from localhost (michael@localhost) by sidhe.memra.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA09002 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:23:39 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:23:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Dillon To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Organization: Memra Software Inc. - Internet consulting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Dave Crocker wrote: > At 7:50 AM -0700 7/25/96, Per Gregers Bilse wrote: > >No, don't forget Dr. Metcalfe's definition of a collapse: "... when > >more than 50,000 people are denied their Internet access for more > >than an hour, let's call it an Internet collapse, ...". By that > >definition the Internet has died when 100k people get no response > >from IBM's WWW servers. > > That, of course, is the problem with overly simplistic definitions. > In this case it feeds a verious serious failure to distinguish between > "failures of the net" and "failures of the information providers". > Good message. Bad tone. I certainly agree with Bob that it is a good idea to have a simple metric for network collapses to more easily explain to the general public what is happening and whether it is a major problem or a minor problem. However, I disagree with his numbers and his terms. I think that a major Internet disaster has to be defined so that it is of a similar scale as a hurricane or the Mississippi river floods of a few years ago. On that scale the Netcom outages were more like a regional snowstorm that clogs the roads for a day. Michael Dillon - ISP & Internet Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-604-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 16:11:04 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id GA25747; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:11:04 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id QAA25389; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:10:01 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id QAA25383; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:08:54 +1000 Received: from ng.netgate.net by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id GA22882; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:08:40 +1000 (from dcrocker@brandenburg.com) Received: from [205.214.160.38] (d6.netgate.net [205.214.160.38]) by ng.netgate.net (8.7.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA24206; Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:15:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: dcrocker@ng.netgate.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:02:39 -0700 To: Michael Dillon From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Precedence: bulk At 5:23 PM -0700 7/25/96, Michael Dillon wrote: >I certainly agree with Bob that it is a good idea to have a simple metric >I think that a major Internet disaster has to be defined so that it is of >a similar scale as a hurricane or the Mississippi river floods of a few >years ago. On that scale the Netcom outages were more like a regional >snowstorm that clogs the roads for a day. Simple metrics are fine. As long as they are reasonable. One which does not distinguish between the situation at a shopping mall on the last shopping day before Christmas, versus a 200-car pile-up on the local Interstate, is completely missing the distinction between infrastructure and end-systems. Most people can tell the difference between a fast busy and a slow one and they know who to blame for each. We need the same distinction if we are going to do anything useful with metrics. d/ -------------------- Dave Crocker +1 408 246 8253 Brandenburg Consulting fax: +1 408 249 6205 675 Spruce Dr. dcrocker@brandenburg.com Sunnyvale CA 94086 USA http://www.brandenburg.com Internet Mail Consortium http://www.imc.org, info@imc.org From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Fri Jul 26 18:30:39 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id IA00470; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:30:39 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id SAA25537; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:30:04 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id SAA25520; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:17:52 +1000 Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id IA11476; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:17:50 +1000 (from ggm@connect.com.au) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id SAA29544 (8.7.4/IDA-1.6); Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:15:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: broon.off.connect.com.au: ggm owned process doing -bs To: Dave Crocker Cc: Michael Dillon , big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:02:39 MST." Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:15:25 +1000 Message-Id: <29542.838368925@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Precedence: bulk How about Brian Carpenters metrics for inter-peer negotiation? If these criteria establish how ISPs change money, maybe they also define how we can measure congestion in meaningful ways? Certainly with cash attached, people are going to be collating and archiving a *LOT* of useful data... -George -- George Michaelson | connect.com.au pty/ltd Email: ggm@connect.com.au | c/o AAPT, Phone: +61 7 3834 9976 | level 8, the Riverside Centre, Fax: +61 7 3834 9908 | 123 Eagle St, Brisbane QLD 4000 From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jul 27 00:10:27 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id OA09007; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 00:10:27 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id AAA25851; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 00:10:06 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id AAA25834; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 00:09:39 +1000 Received: from [204.157.153.2] by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id OA13380; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 00:09:32 +1000 (from jerry@freeside.fc.net) Received: from freeside.fc.net (localhost.fc.net [127.0.0.1]) by freeside.fc.net (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA27136; Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:08:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199607261408.JAA27136@freeside.fc.net> To: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Cc: "Kent W. England" , big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:15:00 PDT." Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:08:56 -0500 From: Jeremy Porter Precedence: bulk In message , Randy Bush writes: >Jack Ricard's response to Metcalfe's imminent demise prediction: >> Having survived the 327 deaths of FidoNet, I don't doubt it. I just don't >> think anyone will be able to tell without test instruments." > >There is an interesting analog between the folk trying to set up 'fake' root >name servers and the FidoNet schismic nodelists. Unless the masses believe >in your namespace, it is vaccuous. Actually that is more of a software problem that anything else. The fact that the old Fido software didn't understand different authoratative sources. The fact that the IANA didn't release more top level domains to other registries, is going to cause the schism(s). Top down managment of the root space one work, a cooperative root zone is needed, with consensus by market share. Really if Metcalfe wanted to predidict a death of the Internet, this whole top level domain issue is more of a problem. (Routing problems are technologically solvable, and the TLD issue is only sociologically solvable.) But I guess this is wandering from the topic at hand somewhat, and no one really wants to beat this dead horse again. --- Jeremy Porter, Freeside Communications, Inc. jerry@fc.net PO BOX 80315 Austin, Tx 78708 | 1-800-968-8750 | 512-458-9816 http://www.fc.net From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sat Jul 27 20:51:38 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id KA15970; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 20:51:38 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id UAA26946; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 20:50:15 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id UAA26929; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 20:33:38 +1000 From: schultz@algonet.se Received: from mail.algonet.se by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id KA13106; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 20:33:27 +1000 (from schultz@algonet.se) Received: from (schultz@bengt.algonet.se [193.12.207.211]) by hermes.algonet.se (8.7.4/hdw.1.0) with SMTP id MAA10932 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 12:33:46 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607271033.MAA10932@hermes.algonet.se> X-Sender: 24343@mail.algonet.se (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 12:31:19 +0100 To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Invest Online #951258951 X-Mailer: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Precedence: bulk DQpOYWNoIGRlciBlbmdsaXNjaGVuIEluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGZvbGd0IFNpZSBhdWYgRGV1dHNj aC4NClRoaXMgbWVzc2FnZSB3aWxsIGJlIGZvbGxvd2VkIGluIEdlcm1hbi4NCiAgICANCklO Rk9STUFUSU9OIElOIEVOR0xJU0gNCiAgICANCkEgcG9zc2liaWxpdHkgdG8gbWFrZSBhbiBp bnRlcmVzdGluZyBhbmQgcHJvZml0YWJsZSBpbnZlc3RtZW50IHdpdGggb25seSAyMCBETSAo VVMkMTIpIQ0KICAgIA0KVmlzaXQgb3VyIGhvbWVwYWdlIGF0dCBVUkwgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cu Y3ViZS5uZXQvfmludmVzdC8NCiAgICANCldoZW4geW91IGVucm9sbCwgcGxlYXNlIGZpbGwg aW4gQ29kZS1OdW1iZXI6IDk1MTI1ODk1MQ0KICAgIA0KSWYgeW91IGNhbm5vdCBkaXJlY3Rs eSByZXRyaWV2ZSB3ZWIgcGFnZXMgd2l0aCBhIGJyb3dzZXIsIHlvdSBjYW4gc2VuZCBlbWFp bCB0byAgdzNtYWlsQGdtZC5kZSAgYW5kIGluY2x1ZGUgYXMgdGhlIGJvZHkgKG5vdCBzdWJq ZWN0KSBvZiB0aGUgbWVzc2FnZQ0KICAgIGdldCBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmN1YmUuZGUvaW52ZXN0 aW5mb3RleHQudHh0DQpJZiB0aGlzIGRvZXNuJ3Qgd29yayAtLSBUcnkgYWdhaW4gbGF0ZXIu IFRoZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB3aWxsIGJlIHRoZW4gc2VudCBieSBlbWFpbC4NCi0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQogICAgDQpJTkZPUk1BVElPTiBB VUYgREVVVFNDSA0KICAgIA0KRGllIE32Z2xpY2hrZWl0IGZ1ZXIgZWluZSBpbnRlcmVzc2Fu dGUgdW5kIGxvaG5lbmRlIEludmVzdGllcnVuZyBtaXQgbnVyIDIwIERNLg0KICAgIA0KSW5m b3JtaWVyZW4gU2llIHNpY2ggYXVmICAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5jdWJlLm5ldC9+aW52ZXN0LyAN CiAgICANCkdlYmVuIFNpZSBkaWUgQ29kZSBOdW1iZXIgOTUxMjU4OTUxIGFuLCB3ZW5uIFNp ZSBzaWNoIGZ1ZXIgZGllIFRlaWxuYW1lIHJlZ2lzdHJpZXJlbi4NCiAgICANCkluZm9ybWF0 aW9uIGR1cmNoIEUtbWFpbC4gUGVyc29uZW4sIGRpZSBudXIgRS1tYWlsIHVuZCBrZWluZW4g WnVnYW5nIHp1IFdXVyBoYWJlbiwga/ZubmVuIHNpY2ggYXVmIGRpZSBmb2xnZW5kZSBBcnQg dW5kIFdlaXNlIHRyb3R6ZGVtIEluZm9ybWF0aW9uIPxiZXIgSU5WRVNUIE9OTElORSBzY2hh ZmZlbiB1bmQgc2ljaCBhdQ0K From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sun Jul 28 12:50:47 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id CA29869; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:50:47 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id MAA27844; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:50:24 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id MAA27829; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:39:58 +1000 Received: from nico.aarnet.edu.au by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id CA09617; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:39:58 +1000 (from gih@telstra.net) Received: from [203.62.0.244] (anumh.actein.edu.au [203.62.0.244]) by nico.aarnet.edu.au (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA19448; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:35:03 +1000 X-Sender: gih@nico.aarnet.edu.au Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:43:23 +1000 To: George Michaelson From: gih@aarnet.edu.au (Geoff Huston) Subject: Re: Metcalfes "imminent death of the internet" prediction Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Precedence: bulk {cc's deleted] At 6:15 PM 26/7/96, George Michaelson wrote: >How about Brian Carpenters metrics for inter-peer negotiation? Brian provoked what I can best term a lively duscussion at the IEPG meeting in June with this paper. My personal observation is that these metrics are not will understood in terms of their use in the context of peering, let alone George's advocacy to use these metrics as a basis for the measurement of "congestion". Geoff From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Sun Jul 28 12:53:50 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id CA32765; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:53:50 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id MAA27866; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:53:43 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id MAA27826; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:37:58 +1000 Received: from linux.silkroad.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id CA31865; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:37:49 +1000 (from bass@linux.silkroad.com) Received: (from bass@localhost) by linux.silkroad.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id WAA30619 for big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU; Sat, 27 Jul 1996 22:37:41 -0400 From: Tim Bass Message-Id: <199607280237.WAA30619@linux.silkroad.com> Subject: Strange Attractors in Network Flows To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 22:37:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Hi. The topic is dissipative systems with a degree of 'randomness' similar to Shaw's observation of strange attractors in the 'leaky faucet model' in the tales from the 'crypts of chaos'. I was thinking about the model and it appeared to me (conjecture) that IP flows in large networks could be modelled as a similar dissapative system with random packet interarrival times; dissapative (of course) because packets are dropped and this is 'more than likely' a nonlinear dynamic process that could be modelled. Hence, based on this conjecture, it seems that chaos theory is quite applicable to IP internetwork flows and therefore is useful to developing models of large internets...... BUT... As usual, there are few unique ideas and applications, so I believe that *someone out there* has been working in this area and has published some IP CHAOS THEORY papers. I have not, however, seen any such publications referenced. Does anyone on big-internet (Noel?) know of any publications in this area? If so, could they forward or post the papers ( I have plenty on chaos theory, just nothing on IP-CHAOS). If not, is anyone interested on big-internet in working on looking for strange attractors in chaotic large IP internetwork flows? Is there a discussion group for this? {Big-internet might be a good place to introduce a new topic, based on the minimal technical traffic lately.} Or, is application of chaos theory to large IP networks inappropriate for the big-internet list? (private e-mail also appreciated) Kind Regards, Tim -- We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year, Running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears. Wish you were here. -Roger Waters From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Mon Jul 29 15:13:58 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id FA11452; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 15:13:58 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id PAA29310; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 15:10:51 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id PAA29293; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 15:01:31 +1000 Received: from black-ice.cc.vt.edu by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id FA05710; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 15:01:23 +1000 (from valdis@black-ice.cc.vt.edu) Received: from localhost (valdis@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by black-ice.cc.vt.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA21344; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:01:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199607290501.BAA21344@black-ice.cc.vt.edu> To: Tim Bass Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Strange Attractors in Network Flows In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 27 Jul 1996 22:37:41 EDT." <199607280237.WAA30619@linux.silkroad.com> From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu X-Url: http://black-ice.cc.vt.edu/~valdis/ References: <199607280237.WAA30619@linux.silkroad.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Id: <13912.838616472.1@black-ice.cc.vt.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 01:01:12 -0400 Precedence: bulk On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 22:37:41 EDT, you said: > As usual, there are few unique ideas and applications, so I believe > that *someone out there* has been working in this area and has published > some IP CHAOS THEORY papers. I have not, however, seen any such > publications referenced. Does anyone on big-internet (Noel?) > know of any publications in this area? If so, could they forward > or post the papers ( I have plenty on chaos theory, just nothing > on IP-CHAOS). The following was seen on the IETF mailing list a few days ago. Is the 'ethernet capture effect' what you are thinking about? Valdis Kletnieks Computer Systems Engineer Virginia Tech --- attached mail follows Message-Id: <199607170345.UAA17867@rx7.ee.lbl.gov> To: Jon Crowcroft cc: iesg@ietf.org, ietf@CNRI.Reston.VA.US Subject: Re: Last Call: TCP Slow Start, Congestion Avoidance, Fast Retransmit, and Fast Recovery Algorithms to BCP In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 16 Jul 96 06:45:42 BST. Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 20:45:04 PDT Sender: ietf-request@ietf.org From: Van Jacobson Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Jon, > that there are limits to its effectiveness (e.g. current > algorithm in presence of drop tail fifo routers has minium > effective rate of 1 packet per RTT You've said this on a number of occasions lately and I think you are giving it rather too much emphasis. The congestion control and timer algorithms were designed together and work in concert. The core of TCP's scalability is it's very conservative, very adaptable retransmit timer. Two things happen in the presense of congestion: queues increase rapidly which increases the RTT seen by users of the path (the biased mean+variance estimator tracks these changes and avoids further inflating the queue with spurious retransmits), and bottleneck link(s) can't handle the agregate input rate and packets get dropped (the exponential backoff in the retransmit timer(s) causes the input rate to drop to the point where it fits in the bottleneck bandwidth). This exponential rate backoff via the retransmit timer is an integral part of the TCP adaptation algorithm (in fact, I feel it's the primary part & the window adjustment stuff is a second order performance tweak). If you were to look at a TCP's behavior as you slowly lowered the available bandwidth, you would find it varied fairly smoothly down to arbitrarily low rates (as opposed to your mental model which seems to have things completely fall apart when the bandwidth-delay product falls below 1 packet) -- all that happens is that TCP modulates the window when the BDP is larger than a packet then switches to modulating the time between packets. To anticipate a question, no, the packet drop behavior doesn't change substantially between these two regimes. If you were to plot the number of drops as a function of available bandwidth, it would also vary fairly smoothly over the entire range. The problems with running in this timer controlled regime are that it's very unfair (because of something nearly identical to the ethernet capture effect) and bandwidth upstream of the bottleneck(s) is wasted transporting packets that will be dropped at the bottleneck (a very serious scaling problem in a general mesh network but a problem that people designing braindead "loss preference" machinery seem to ignore). But that doesn't mean it doesn't work -- it deals with congestion quite as well as modulating the window and, in the absense of something like RED in the gateways, is only slightly less fair (window modulation is also unfair because of an autocatalysis effect). RED makes either the window or timer scheme fair. I think the essense of reliable protocol design is getting the timers right. If you do, the protocol will probably work & scale (though there may be lots of things you'll have to tweak to get good performance). If you botch the timers, the protocol is guaranteed to fall apart at some scale (but, unfortunately, people are very bad about anticipating the effects of scale & a lot of these bench-top grad student projects end up escaping & causing no end of suffering for their users before they die). I think experience has shown that the TCP designers did a remarkably good job on the timers (contemporaries such as X.25 & TP-4 completely botched them). It's important to remember that they're the protocol's most basic defense against congestion and treat them with respect (and occasionally defend them against poorly conceived, destablizing "improvements" like the collection of mistakes in Arizona's "tcp vegas"). - Van From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Mon Jul 29 16:53:02 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id GA27935; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:53:02 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id QAA29409; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:50:56 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id QAA29403; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:44:37 +1000 Received: from kremvax.demos.su by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id GA02277; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:44:28 +1000 (from avrora!avrora.msk.su!root@kremvax.demos.su) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from root@localhost id KAA10978; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:40:08 +0400 Received: by avrora.msk.su (UUPC/@ v4.07 from Ache, 22Mar92); Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:28:24 MSD To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU, isoc-interest@relay.sgi.com Message-Id: Organization: Avrora From: root@avrora.msk.su (root) X-Class: Fast Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 08:28:23 +0400 (MSD) Subject: Moscow University X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.27] Precedence: bulk Dear friends, I have wrote you about USA university's e-mail addresses. I have recieved yours advice to see WWW. But I cannot do it becouse I use Relcom-net, not Internet, and unpossible to use WWW. I am interested in university's theatres and culture centres, or peolpe who organize this. Please, if you know something, write me on root@avrora.msk.su Thank you, Natasha Moscow University From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Mon Jul 29 17:52:48 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id HA25530; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:52:48 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id RAA29487; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:50:51 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id RAA29481; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:48:18 +1000 Received: from linux.silkroad.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id HA23345; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:48:04 +1000 (from bass@linux.silkroad.com) Received: (from bass@localhost) by linux.silkroad.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id DAA32085; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:47:45 -0400 From: Tim Bass Message-Id: <199607290747.DAA32085@linux.silkroad.com> Subject: Re: Strange Attractors in Network Flows To: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: <199607290501.BAA21344@black-ice.cc.vt.edu> from "Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu" at Jul 29, 96 01:01:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Valdis replies: > Is the 'ethernet capture effect' what you are thinking about? I am certainly no expert on chaos theory; but chaotic systems are typically non-linear dynamic systems that can exhibit a very high degree of sensitively to small changes. These systems are complex, similar to IP internetworks, i.e. the weather forcasting. The 'ethernet effect' as you mention is only one of potentially numerous variables and 'effects' in large IP internetworks that can influence the behavior of the system. Traditional mathematical techniques look at complex models such as IP internetworks and 'throw out' the nonlinear parts and overly simplify the model so 'traditional' techniques of modelling can be performed. However, error analysis in these systems show that small errors in calculations (or perturbations) products very large changes in the behavior of the system (known as the Lorenz 'Butterfly' effect). The 'ethernet capture effect' discussion you attached isolates one particular effect that in weakly causal in IP internetworks and is not central to IP-CHAOS model development and strange attractors in dissipative systems. IP-CHAOS theory would look at the seeming random packet arrival and departure rates (or flows rates) and attempt to look for a strange attractor that models the overall behavior of a complex nonlinear system. (or something like that, since the concept of IP-CHAOS is something that I have introduced here on big-internet)... hoping to find that someone has written a paper on it before so we can benefit from their prior work in the area. The paper or references that I am seeking would talk directly to the ideas of chaos theory related to IP internetworking. Thanks, Tim From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Mon Jul 29 18:51:23 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id IA08165; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:51:23 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id SAA29570; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:50:52 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id SAA29550; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:33:24 +1000 Received: from necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id IA27082; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:33:09 +1000 (from mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) From: Masataka Ohta Message-Id: <199607290832.RAA03650@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Received: by necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp (8.6.11/TM2.1) id RAA03650; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 17:32:09 +0900 Subject: Re: Strange Attractors in Network Flows To: bass@linux.silkroad.com (Tim Bass) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 17:32:07 JST Cc: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu, big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: <199607290747.DAA32085@linux.silkroad.com>; from "Tim Bass" at Jul 29, 96 3:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Precedence: bulk Tim; > I am certainly no expert on chaos theory; Strange attractor makes deterministic system behave like stochastic system. You don't need chaos theory for the already-stochastic system of the Internet. Masataka Ohta From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Mon Jul 29 18:53:25 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id IA14200; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:53:25 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id SAA29592; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:52:59 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id SAA29553; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:33:42 +1000 Received: from black-ice.cc.vt.edu by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id IA09723; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 18:33:39 +1000 (from valdis@black-ice.cc.vt.edu) Received: from localhost (valdis@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by black-ice.cc.vt.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA34486; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 04:33:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199607290833.EAA34486@black-ice.cc.vt.edu> To: Tim Bass Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Strange Attractors in Network Flows In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:47:45 EDT." <199607290747.DAA32085@linux.silkroad.com> From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Pgp-Action: signclearpem; rfc822=off; originator="" X-Url: http://black-ice.cc.vt.edu/~valdis/ References: <199607290747.DAA32085@linux.silkroad.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Id: <26798.838629207.1@black-ice.cc.vt.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 04:33:28 -0400 Precedence: bulk On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:47:45 EDT, Tim Bass said: > The 'ethernet capture effect' discussion you attached isolates > one particular effect that in weakly causal in IP internetworks > and is not central to IP-CHAOS model development and strange > attractors in dissipative systems. So what you're saying is "interesting, but not good enough?" > IP-CHAOS theory would look at the seeming random packet arrival > and departure rates (or flows rates) and attempt to look for Well, a chaotic system will only look chaotic if you look at the right phase space. Are you sure that it's packet arrival/departure that is interesting, or flow rates? Personally, I think a better (and more productive) line of attack would be looking at routing flaps (which often exhibit "ringing" as one after another router falls over while attempting to swallow a large routing update), or maybe some other measure. Another thing to look at might be access rates to popular mirror-FTP sites (especially those that have made attempts to setup a frobozz.org DNS that tries to round-robin effectively). What damping/oscillation rate do we end up seeing due to the "this FTP server is full" scenario? Also, are you sure that you would know chaotic behaviour if you saw it? And more to the point, are you likely to *find* it before some network admin spots it and stomps it out? I know around here, we have a tendency to go find and "fix" any sudden oscillation in packet rates. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the major long-haul providers are similar - this may mean that your best shot at finding chaotic behavior *is* on a small network (a la the ethernet capture). /Valdis From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Tue Jul 30 02:51:16 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA15560; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 02:51:16 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id CAA00230; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 02:50:59 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id CAA00213; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 02:37:26 +1000 Received: from portia.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id QA32602; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 02:37:23 +1000 (from marnellm@portia.portia.com) Received: from portia.portia.com (localhost.portia.com [127.0.0.1]) by portia.portia.com (8.7.4/8.7.4(portia)) with ESMTP id MAA25198 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 12:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199607291637.MAA25198@portia.portia.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/8/95 To: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Strange Attractors in Network Flows In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:47:45 EDT." <199607290747.DAA32085@linux.silkroad.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 12:37:15 -0400 From: Matthew James Marnell Precedence: bulk While we're on the subject of papers and Internet modeling: Somewhere between '90 and '92 while my mother was going back to school for her Masters in Psychyology, she was writing a paper for an Abnormal Psychology class. She came across a reference to the Internet, that said that, in time of stress, certain features of the 'Net exhibited the brainwave patterns of a schizophrenic, or something to that effect. At the time, I was interested, but not interested enough to look into it further. Now I wish I had. If anyone knows of a pointer to this work, I'd like it. Mr. Bass may also be interested in it as well. Matt From owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU Tue Jul 30 09:52:14 1996 Return-Path: Received: from murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id XA28328; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:52:14 +1000 (from owner-Big-Internet@munnari.OZ.AU) Received: from mailing-list by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) id JAA00608; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:51:07 +1000 Received: from munnari.OZ.AU by murtoa.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.6.9/1.0) with SMTP id JAA00602; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:46:07 +1000 Received: from linux.silkroad.com by munnari.OZ.AU with SMTP (5.83--+1.3.1+0.56) id XA08424; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:45:59 +1000 (from bass@linux.silkroad.com) Received: (from bass@localhost) by linux.silkroad.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id TAA32743; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:45:42 -0400 From: Tim Bass Message-Id: <199607292345.TAA32743@linux.silkroad.com> Subject: Re: Strange Attractors in Network Flows To: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Cc: big-internet@munnari.OZ.AU In-Reply-To: <199607290833.EAA34486@black-ice.cc.vt.edu> from "Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu" at Jul 29, 96 04:33:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Continuing: > > So what you're saying is "interesting, but not good enough?" > Hmmmm. I'm not sure I meant that :-) But it did seem like a traditional linear dynamics (simplified) approach to a nonlinear problem... which was precisely what seems to be 'off target' with attempts to model large internetworks. Grok. > Well, a chaotic system will only look chaotic if you look at the > right phase space. Are you sure that it's packet arrival/departure Exactly, and finding the right model is, of course the key... > that is interesting, or flow rates? Personally, I think a better > (and more productive) line of attack would be looking at routing > flaps (which often exhibit "ringing" as one after another router > falls over while attempting to swallow a large routing update), > or maybe some other measure. Another thing to look at might be > access rates to popular mirror-FTP sites (especially those that > have made attempts to setup a frobozz.org DNS that tries to round-robin > effectively). What damping/oscillation rate do we end up seeing > due to the "this FTP server is full" scenario? Agreed. What are the sets of possible phase-spaces that exist in IP internetworks? That seems to be the question to ponder. I'll be thinking of a few over then next few days. Any ideas in this area? Regards, Tim